This story is an enactment of a conversation between 21st century American Christians, courtesy of our friends at 11th-hour.

The players:

Curt is a main stream American evangelical Christian, active in his Church, "on fire" for the Lord, and educated in his faith by the mainstream Church in America today. He goes to Sunday school classes, attends Church every Sunday, and is considered a good Christian man. He has three children, all boys, and a beautiful wife who shares all of his spiritual convictions. He is a very well to do man who runs his own business, spending approximately 60-70 hours each week at the office, and even spends 10-12 hours at home each week on his Computer and on the phone working out business details. He is a hard working man.

Jacob is a Christian as well, who has experiences with the Lord ranging back as far as three decades. He was once very active in his Church, and had a ministry to the youth, with a strong emphasis on personal evangelism. He has however, within the last two years, returned from a long hiatus from Church attendance, and his fellow Christians look at him with skepticism and concern, assuming that his spiritual life is hanging in the balance of so many years away from the Church. He has a job, and is happily married with one Child, also a Boy. Jacob spends many hours each week reading the word and praying, and has never left his faith behind, in fact does not even really have an explanation as to why he stopped attending Church. Recently, realizing how long he has been out, he returns to the Church to enjoy the fellowship he once enjoyed there.

The setup:

Returning to church feels good to Jacob. He misses the fellowship, and the warm feeling of security he receives from being a member. He decides to join the Men's Bible study, which occurs each Wednesday evening, for additional fellowship with the same men he used to fellowship with back when he attended regularly. Although the Bible study topic is the book of Romans, due to the recent attacks on American soil, the Bible study leader (who is Curt), feels led to discuss current events in order to teach what he believes to be a proper world view for the Men attending this study. He gives a heartfelt speech about the need for justice for the thousands that were killed that day. He talks about how the terrorists need to be eradicated from the earth, and that it is our Christian duty to support the President in his foreign policies, and that it is against God to be in opposition to the war in Iraq. He talks about how America is a holy nation, and that God is with the US in its doings. He ends the Bible study with a prayer rebuking those who oppose the war, those who oppose the President, and prays that God will continue to bless America as he always has.

Jacob sits dumbfounded at the things he is seeing and hearing in this bible study. He remembers 10 years earlier, attending bible studies where it was discussed that the world was an evil place, and that the kingdoms of the world were under the influence of the God of this world, which he believes the Bible states clearly, and always has. During the course of the study Jacob looks around and realizes he is among a group of people that he used to know, but who have drastically changed. He notices his old church friend John, who used to be a fairly poor man, he remembers how Happy a man John was and how full of love for God he used to be. Now he looks and sees John in a nice suit with a beautiful Gold watch, an expensive hair weave, and he notices his Mercedes key sitting on the table in front of him. John seems heavy and stressed now, he is roused by the words Curt speaks, and says hearty "Amen's" over the things that Curt prays. Suddenly Jacob realizes he is not looking at the same situation he left a decade ago. He feels sick to his stomach knowing that he can not sit by and not say something. After the study is over, and the other men have left, he approaches Curt.

Jacob: Hello Curt, how are you.

Curt: Jacob! Long time no see buddy, we have been praying for you. I can see our prayers have been answered!

Jacob: Thank you, I appreciate that Curt, but I feel a strong need to speak to you about some of the things that were said in this room tonight Brother.

Curt: Well sure, feel free Jacob, you know you can talk to me anytime.

Jacob: I am not sure I understand what the basis is for some of the stuff you said about current world events. In fact, I am not sure I understand the entire idea behind everything you said from the time you felt led to discuss world events, and the War in Iraq.

Curt: Well Jacob, part of what Men's Bible study is for is to teach the men in the church about the Lord, his will, and to give men a proper Christian world view.

Jacob: Even if that view is the exact opposite of what our Lord said Curt?

Curt: What do you mean by that?? What did I say that was the opposite of what the Lord said?

Jacob: Well for starters Curt, what makes you think the Lord would be pleased with his servants participating in, or supporting killing men?

Curt: Jacob, these men came into America and killed thousands of American citizens! How could you NOT support finding those men, and bringing them to justice??

Jacob: By killing them? Taking revenge?

Curt: Yes Jacob, we are at war! What are you saying?

Jacob: I have been watching the news and the current administration’s views, and what is going on in the world, I also notice that the Christian Church has placed its stamp of approval and its support behind them, and I don’t see how a Christian can condone, or support what basically amounts to a course of revenge Curt, especially in the name of Jesus. How does that line up with the words of Jesus?

Curt: What are you talking about??

Jacob: I’m talking about Mathew 5: 43-45 Curt. Which says; you have heard it said Love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you. That you may be children of your Father…

Curt: I know what the verses say Jacob!

Jacob: Then how do you justify the position that you stated in this Bible study tonight?

Curt: Jacob, all prominent Christian leaders agree that terrorists need to be eradicated from the earth! Didn’t you hear the President? We are fighting an “axis of evil” this is a spiritual war. We have to fight the good fight!

Jacob: First of all I don’t see how every prominent leader saying this makes it more effectual than the Bible. Secondly Curt, in the verses where Paul says to fight the good fight he is talking about faith in a man's life, and how he needs to spend his life striving to attain the High call of God in Christ, he wasn’t talking about war. Your use of that term is so far out of context it isn’t even funny.

Curt: Listen Jacob, the church obviously had enough faith in me to put me in the position of teaching this study, I think I am in a better position to say what the Spirit is doing here than you are, no offense, but I have been a Christian for 25 years, I think I know what the Bible says.

Jacob: If that’s the case Curt, then why are you teaching principals that betray the message of Jesus, the words of the Bible, and all that he told us to stand for!

Curt: Jacob, what are you talking about?? Where have you been in recent years?? You haven’t darkened the doors of this church in years! How can you come back in here, and tell ME, a faithful church attendee for 25 years, and a teacher in the church what the Lord says??

Jacob: Curt, do you honestly believe that you’re church attendance is the mark of validity on your teaching? I know who you are at this Church, I also know you are a member of the Apostles and Prophets movement, and that you have been deemed a Prophet by that same movement.

Curt: Well it certainly is better than not being here for 10 years isn’t it?

Jacob: Curt, I am not comparing myself to you on the point of church attendance, I am saying that the things you said in here tonight are contrary to scripture. Your validity as a teacher has to be your knowledge of the Word of God, and your rightness in using his word. Not your Church attendance, your standing in the Church, or your status as a Prophet in some in-vogue movement.

Curt: What exactly are you implying here Jacob??

Jacob: I am saying that the Word does not say that we are to kill those who oppose us spiritually or politically. That Jesus never ever said that we were to seek out revenge for being persecuted, or that we would strike first when we detect the possibility that someone MAY strike us. In fact Curt, I don’t see where Jesus said we should rise up and kill at all, even in our own DEFENSE. How does that stack up with this “pre-emptive strike” philosophy now being preached by our “holy” government bud?

Curt: What???

Jacob: Which part of this are you asking what to? Could you give me some scriptural background for what you were teaching the men in this study tonight?

Curt: First of all, the bible says that the Government does not wield the sword in vain Jacob.

Jacob: Yes I know Curt, Romans 13: 1-4. I think its pretty obvious there he is talking about the government’s power over it’s OWN citizens, since Paul is talking to Romans about how they should live and be law abiding citizens. I believe in rendering respect to the leadership as far as the laws of the land, but that doesn’t mean they wield the sword rightly on WHOMEVER they choose to wield it. He is talking about law and order there Curt, and I think you know that. Also, you didn’t happen to notice the 6 or 8 verses just prior to that in the book of Romans did you??

Romans 12: 14-21 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lies within you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord. Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Remember those verses Curt?

Curt: You can quote all the verses of scripture you want here Jacob, but you haven’t been in the church for the better part of a decade, and there is no way you have the right view of these things.

Jacob: Are you listening to yourself Curt?? “You can quote all the scripture you want” as if the Word doesn’t matter in this conversation?? Since when did the in-vogue beliefs in the church over rule the Bible in the hearts of Christians? Since when was it ok to follow and support beliefs that are contrary to the Word??

Curt: There is nothing contrary to the Word in my beliefs Jacob! This is what I don’t understand! Where do you come off coming in here and teaching ME the word? You are out there Jacob, you are LOST! You have been out of the church for way too long, and it has ruined your spirit.

Jacob: At this particular moment in time Curt, I am enormously thankful that I have not been in the church for this long, if it has saved me from passing through the progression you have obviously passed through.

Curt: What progression is that Jacob? What are you talking about?

Jacob: I am talking about a progression that brought you from honoring the word of God to betraying it. You stand here tonight defending, by way of ideologies and political thinking, beliefs that utterly and completely betray the words of Jesus, and you are now telling me that the Church has sanctioned you to do so?

Curt: Jacob, God loves America. This is the only Christian nation. It is America ’s responsibility to shine the light of the gospel on the world, and to spread freedom and liberty to all men.

Jacob: At the point of the guns of the mighty American military? No one in the world is going to be convicted of his sin by America rolling its tanks into their cities and saying “We are in control” Do you actually stand there saying the Soldiers are preaching the gospel in Iraq today Curt?? What are you thinking man??? Do the people of the world deserve the “freedom and liberty” to have the type of government THEY choose to have in their land?? Apparently not according to the Christian Church, which now touts our government as a holy thing!

Curt: I never said they were preaching the gospel Jacob.

Jacob: But you did say they were on a godly mission right? That they are doing the will of God in the world? In Iraq?

Curt: We are not suppose to judge our leaders Jacob, we are supposed to pray for them, why are you being so judgmental??

Jacob: The Lord told us not to Judge, you are right, but he did say we would know them by their fruits, we are called to align ourselves only with people who bear fruit unto the gospel.

Curt: That is exactly what I am saying about supporting our Government.

Jacob: What? That our government bears fruit unto the gospel Curt??

Curt: Yes.

Jacob: Oh my God! I can’t believe what I am hearing! You think this Government bears fruit unto the gospel??

Curt: I do! We are freeing a whole country from a hideous dictator, who has killed millions of his own people! Are you saying that is not of God?

Jacob: What? You mean, the 4th version of the reasons why we went into Iraq?? Curt, where have you been, man? Without finding Osama Bin Laden, America picked up shop before the job they set out to do was done, and basically high-tailed it into Iraq, leaving about 12 thousand soldiers to finish the paramount task of the war on terror, which was catching him, and ran off to secure a land that just happens to have the 2nd largest reserve of oil under it! How blind could a person be, not to see the opportunistic nature of that occupation??

Curt: Hold on just a minute Jacob! I am not going to stand here and listen to you, who hasn’t been in church for YEARS tell me that this president is not a true Christian!

Jacob: It is interesting that you would say that Curt, since I have not yet mentioned one single word about him or his faith. If you don’t mind my saying so, it sounds like you have questions of your own lingering in your heart. I will not at any time make a judgment about things between him and God, but two things I will not do, unlike you, I will not ignore the fruits that he bears, and I will not accept leadership or follow leadership that betrays the basic ideals of our faith. Are you saying that the Disciples or Paul should have silenced themselves, or ceased preaching the Gospel, and rebuking the leadership in Israel because they were not supposed to judge their leaders? How many times did those men say "You tell me which is better, to obey you, or to obey God". Clearly Paul did not intend to imply that we esteem our leadership, especially worldly leadership, over the Word of truth or over our esteem of God.

Curt: Oh come on! This is different than that Jacob! This is America! This nation was founded on holy principles! You have basically said here tonight that the church is wrong in its support of the U.S.A. Part of the reason that you say that, is because you are out of touch with the church because you have been gone for so long!

Jacob: The USA is not the kingdom of God Curt! The Church is not PART of the USA. It is the citizenship of a much greater country, who’s builder and maker is God. Where did the idea of aligning the church with the political attitudes of the world come from? Killing? Murder? Pillaging the natural resources of foreign lands? What does the scripture say about the political arena Curt? It is the dominion of Satan! He welcomes the church into political activity! This is HIS backyard, he wants us here! You are falling right into his trap.

Curt: That is ridiculous! You go farer into the outer limits the more we talk!

Jacob: Curt! Wake up! In Revelation 11:15 The word says: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. THAT is when the political arena comes back into the hands of God Curt, and since it is safe to say we are not at the 7th trumpet right now I think you’d agree that this takes place at a later time!

Curt: I just can not believe the things that you are saying! You are condemning the entire Church, as if you are some holy man, and we are all lost! Judging the leaders, judging the government. Where is your patriotism Jacob?? Don't you love your Country? Where is all this coming from?? Why are you so anti American now??

Jacob: I am not anti American Curt! I am ANTI WORLD! I don't subscribe to the idea that the church is to jump headlong into the political arena, and change the world into its view of an ideal utopia, using the great American Guns and worldly means to bring about spiritual ends! Again, what does the scripture say? 2 Corinthians 10:12 The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. What happened to prayer vigils, and nationwide fasts by the church to pray against the footholds that the enemy is taking in our world? What happened to fighting Satan on the ground that we are called to fight him on... in the spirit.

Curt: I really think you need prayer Jacob, you have strayed far from God and are caught in this Bible bashing, legalistic bondage that has stripped you of all that makes being a Christian great, not to mention this incredibly puffed up self righteousness you are expressing now!

Jacob: I have not at any time during this conversation claimed to be a holy man, nor have I put myself on any kind of a pedestal at all. In fact, all I have done is quote the Word Curt. I know I haven’t been here for a long time and I make no excuse for that, but for your information, I have continued in the word and prayer all along, my faith has not been abandoned. How you can make that judgment about me, while crying foul and claiming I am judging the president is beyond me. We are two Christians discussing things that are very important, and I don’t see where spiritual pride belongs in that conversation.

Curt: I hear a LOT of pride in what you are saying here, not to mention that there certainly is no love in it. And I'm not to sure you can say "we are two Christians discussing things that are very important" When it is UN-Christian to disagree with this war. The Bible you have been quoting here says that leadership is in place by God's hand, not Satan's.

Jacob: I fully believe that Curt, but that doesn't make the scriptures that say those men are under the influence of the God of this world not true. Would God raise up leaders that lie, and kill, and call them his own? definitely not.

Curt: Another judgment Jacob. Now you are saying the President is dishonest, and making judgments about his character! As I said it shows how out of touch you are with the events of the times, The Church, and the Holy spirit of God! An obvious result of being out of the church for so long!

Jacob: And what does what you just said tell you Curt? I have been gone for a long time, and I am out of touch with the Church, you are right, but I obviously am not out of touch with the word because I back the things I am saying here with that word. You have backed nothing you have said with scripture, only the trendy opinions that are as I said, "in-vogue" in the church right now. When I left here ten years ago you believed the exact same things I believed! So what has changed in our beliefs Curt? You have been feeding on the trends of the Church's teachings, and I have fed off of the word of God, how is it that we find ourselves on the opposite ends of this discussion? And as far as love is concerned Curt, don't say that I don't love you or the other people here in this church. When I left a long time ago, we both had very active ministries going in this church, neither of us were novices then, never mind now. It took plenty of Love to approach you here tonight, because I knew it would jeopardize our friendship. But I know there are some great evils afoot in this new trend of the Church allying itself with a political party, and entering into the world arena to bring about change.

Curt: I could agree with you on that if we were standing in any other country than this one Jacob, but this land is a Christian nation, and God blesses America greatly, there is no denying that!

Jacob: Remember when we were young men, and that guy Ben Harrington had that class on Revelation, and he talked about end times?

Curt: Oh yeah, I remember Ben! He was an awesome teacher, and what a good man. You know he teaches at a Christian collage now. I'm sure he would have plenty to say about what you have said here tonight Jacob.

Jacob: I know I heard that he is a professor. No surprises there huh?

Curt: No definitely not.

Jacob: Do you remember the pictures that he drew in our minds, about what the world would be like at the time of the coming of the Lord?

Curt: Yes, I do. He was so good at drawing pictures with his words, what a great teacher he was!

Jacob: He sure was. Remember what he used to say about the time of the Antichrist, and all that stuff about the woman riding the beast and all that?

Curt: Yeah, he used to say how a worldly church would take powerful control of a massive and glorious Government, and that was what the Woman riding the beast meant... Hey, wait a minute Jacob, I know what you are driving at! There is no way that America is that government! How could you say such a thing??

Jacob: Are you sure about that Curt? Think about it. A huge, wealthy, religious, powerful, mighty Government, the most powerful Government that has ever existed in the world. The other countries of the world made rich by trading their goods there, and they are pulled into her harlotries and iniquities. All the world marveling and copying its styles. It goes about doing its own will, no one able to stand against it or resist it?

Curt: Look, there is no way America is that country Jacob. That country will be over there, a newly organized Europe or something like that. The Antichrist will be a Jewish man.

Jacob: What makes you think he is a Jew Curt?

Curt: Well everything the Devil does is a mockery of Christ Jacob, he will have to be a Jew, so that he can fool the Jews into believing he is the messiah.

Jacob: Again, you are saying something that doesn't agree with scripture Curt, the word doesn't say he is a Jew. In fact, it indicates exactly the opposite, he is a Gentile. Daniel chapters 7-8 give a picture of the events at that time, and all of your so called prominent leaders agree, that the prophetic, apocalyptic Babylon is the final manifestation, and re establishment of the Roman Empire. Even the church today admits that America is made up almost entirely of the ancestors of the fallen Roman empire. If you remember correctly, Ben Harrington used to say that as well.

Curt: There is simply NO WAY that America is that kingdom. That kingdom is not a kingdom founded on Christianity Jacob. In Fact, the Bible doesn't really mention America at all playing a role in the end times events. We have to conclude that it is gone at that point in time.

Jacob: And why not? How can you say with certainty that America is not that kingdom? In fact, that kingdom IS founded on religion Curt, and proclaims itself a "holy nation". What makes you think that the Bible doesn't mention America Curt? And what makes you say that America will be gone at that point? Why is it always, oh no, not America, anyone but us!

Curt: Because the kingdom that IS that kingdom needs to rise to power and take over the world. That will all happen in the middle east. The European union countries, or the united nations.

Jacob: Curt the Bible says that that country's influence will be world wide, meaning all over the world, not just the middle east. Its not like the Lord didn't know that men would colonize this side of the world. And how do you think another nation will ever rise to power in this world? Every time a nation begins to develop the technology to become a superpower, America demonizes it in the world, and stops it from proceeding with those programs. America is the only remaining superpower, and there can arise no other Curt. Why can't you see the obvious similarities between this country, and what the scripture describes as that great kingdom to be? Powerful, rich, influential, willful, corrupt, controlling all the governments of the world? Do you realize that if all the militaries of the world joined together as one unit, they would still be utterly destroyed by the American military?

Curt: There is no way America is Babylon Jacob, I don't believe that. I WON'T believe that! There is NO WAY that country is going to be a good God fearing country like this one.

Jacob: Saying that you WON'T believe that is a very dangerous thing to say Curt. Remember what Satan said to Jesus when he tempted him? Mathew 4:9 "All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me" The governments and rulers of this world are under the influence of the Devil at this time Curt.

Curt: Jacob, Satan was a liar, that's all he can do is lie. He was lying to Jesus!

Jacob: Curt you can't lie to God, even Satan won't try that. It would not have been a real temptation if it was not a valid offer. Jesus knew the truth. The devil didn't lie to him on the other two promises either, because Jesus had to overcome REAL temptations.

Curt: You are probably right about that Jacob, and I admit your knowledge of the Scripture has really increased. But the things you are saying about this country are simply not true, and I think we will see in the coming years that I am right.

Jacob: Let me ask you this question; If the bible is the Word of God as it says it is, in its description of world events and prophecies, how could it possibly miss a country like this Curt? It is the biggest nation, the most wealthy, the most powerful, religious nation that has ever existed in the history of the world. There is in fact no way that the scripture misses the existence of America, simply no way.

Curt: Jacob...

Jacob: And what about the things that America is really doing right now Curt? Seeking revenge? Stealing the 2nd largest oil reserve on the planet from the country that owns that land? Falsely accusing that countries leaders of having weapons it doesn't have? Would "God's country" bear false witness against the other rulers of the world, in order to bring about God's will? Would God raise up leaders that are hypocrites, and liars and call them his own??

Curt: Now see? There you go again Curt! You are judging our leaders. The war in Iraq is a war against terrorism and it is one that America HAS to fight! And here you are calling them hypocrites!

Jacob: Curt, the war in Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism other than that every terrorist in the world is going over to Iraq, to kill the 130 thousand Americans that our government put there. Iraqi citizens have never been terrorists Curt. They are people that have a bunch of kids, a car and a job. They lived life not all that different than ours before 1991. The terrorists of the world come from places like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Afghanistan, Libya. Very few terrorists in the world come from Iraq. I'm not saying none at all, and I'm not saying Saddam was a good man, he certainly wasn't. But what about all the lies that were told about why we went in there, how can one NOT say we are hypocrites?

Curt: Jacob, I don't care what the reason was that they went into Iraq! Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator, and it is a good thing.

Jacob: Yes, and the 3 trillion in oil reserve is a coincidental benefit for our noble cause right Curt? Why didn't we have a problem with his "brutal dictatorship" when we supported him in the Iran/Iraq war? America doesn't care one bit who is a brutal dictator, all they care about is Oil, and that the leaders of the other countries stand aside and let America suck the world dry of its resources, while expanding their corporations. Saddam Hussein didn't become a "brutal Dictator" in our eyes until he decided to trade on the Euro Curt, THAT is the reason he needed to go.

Curt: Well you have obviously become a total hater of America Curt, and I know that God is not pleased with that. I for one will not be able to fellowship with you any longer, and I would appreciate it if you didn't attend this Bible study any longer either. This Church stands strong behind America, and does not associate with detractors who claim that America is evil. I will talk to the Pastor about your membership, and I'm sure that he will agree with me that you are not going to be welcome here any longer.

Jacob: I'm sorry you feel that way Curt, and if that is the decision that the Pastor makes, I will abide by it. That would be a foretold event as well, such as when Jesus said in Luke 6: 22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. and in John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service. I don't find the things you are now saying one bit surprising Curt.

Curt: I don't know what else to say to you Jacob.

Jacob: Alright Curt, let's end this conversation here, since there is obviously no way, even with the scripture that I can prove the truth to you, but let me ask you one more question..

Curt: And what question is that?

Jacob: You have 3 son's of your own, if you think this country is on some kind of a holy mission, I assume you will exercise you're parental influence, and encourage your sons to join the military and join this holy war?

Curt: Yes, I absolutely will! Because unlike you, I believe in America, and I support our troops. God has a divine mission for this country to carry out, and I will support that mission to my grave.

Jacob: You mean to your Son's graves. Even though you have not mentioned even ONE scripture here that can support that view at all, nor are you able to. Even though by encouraging your sons to join the military, and go out into the world and possibly be killed helping America to continue its course of revenge, World domination, and the filthy lucre based nature of their intentions?

Curt: I don't see anything happening in the world that supports what you are saying, and I am certainly not going to take the word of a man who has not been in the church for many years on the fulfillment of prophetic scripture, and world events.

Jacob: You say you don't see anything happening in the world to support my view, because you refuse to look Curt. You are turning a blind eye to the atrocities that your government is committing and have no problem with that at all. This is what the Bible defines as "loving darkness". because you refuse to see the truth. You have said you see nothing happening in the world to support what I have said here, and you are right, the proof of what is happening is not in the world which is where you and the church are looking for answers at this time, but the proof of what I have said here tonight does exist Curt, it exists in the Word of God, and has now for 2000 years.

Curt: Jacob, I think you should just leave..

Jacob: I will leave Curt, but before I do I will warn you of two things. #1 you are fulfilling 2 very important scriptures here in this conversation, and if the pastor supports you concerning me, the church will have fulfilled one of them as well.

Curt: And what scriptures are those Jacob?

Jacob: The first one is found in your unwillingness to consider the scriptures I have laid out here tonight, and it is found in 2 Thessalonians 2: 11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. and the other is found in your complete willingness to ignore the vastly unrighteous deeds of this nation, placing your trust in that nation, and turning a blind eye to the truths that are plainly before you each day in the news, found in John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. This is exactly what Jesus meant by that Curt, that the condemnation that will come upon so many will be that they loved to turn a blind eye to evil, and remain in "darkness"

Curt: You know something Jacob.... I don't even know what that means, what you just said!

Jacob: I can see that Curt, and my prayer is that sometime after this conversation is over, God will reveal to you exactly what it does mean.

Curt: Either way Jacob, this conversation is over, and I am sorry, but I can have nothing more to do with you. I have been a Christian for many many years, and I know the word of God. The things that you have said here are of the devil, and I will not heed them.

Parting Company

Turning to leave the room, Jacob feels a great sense of loss and sorrow about the conversation that just took place. He opens the door and begins to leave, as he does, he looks back at Curt...

Jacob: You know Curt, I think you should consider one thing as you burn with the nationalist pride that has encompassed the church since 9-11, and before you decide to influence your sons to join the American military.

Curt: And what is that Jacob?

Jacob: That if you should influence them to do so, and they join, and are killed in one of America's quests for world domination, there is a VERY real possibility that you would have sacrificed one of your sons to the Beast of Revelation 17.

Shaking his head as he watches Jacob leave the room Curt thinks to himself how tragic it is that Jacob has been out of church, and that he can not see the greatness of his country, and the importance of their war on terror. He prays that God will open his eyes before too long...

Slowly closing the door and leaving Curt there in silence, Jacob prays to God that Curt will remember the words that were said here tonight, and that God will convict him of the truths that were spoken. He prays that God will manifest to Curt in undeniable fashion, the evil that is afoot in the world, and that he will do it before long...

Part 2: The Meeting

The following is the second part of the true story based conversation which we released in February of 2004. The first part of the Conversation was a pretty exact depiction of the results of some conversations that W. C. Kisiel and myself have had with both mainstream Christians, and ordinary American's with no stated religious affiliation.

In the second part of the conversation, Curt has made an appointment with the Pastor of their church, and has asked the Pastor to invite Jacob to the meeting to discuss the contents of their former conversation. Curt has given Pastor J. Smythe a rundown of the Conversation. Pastor Smythe is concerned for Jacob, given Curt's depiction of the discussion they had.

This part of the Conversation is gathered from many stories in the news, and on the internet, and from mainstream Christian leadership's statements regarding what the Church's handling of people who believe as Jacob does should be. It also comes from our first hand experiences with dealing with Pastors and Parishioners in certain Church's bible studies we have attended, where these discussions have come up.

As the conversation begins however, will the Pastor begin to see a different picture than the one that Curt had drawn for him? What will pastor Smythe have to say regarding the verses of scripture that will be discussed? Join us now for this second installment of this important, and relevant 21st Century Conversation!

The Players:

Curt is a main stream American evangelical Christian, active in his Church, "on fire" for the Lord, and educated in his faith by the mainstream Church in America today. He goes to Sunday school classes, attends Church every Sunday, and is considered a good Christian man. He has three children, all boys, and a beautiful wife who shares all of his spiritual convictions. He is a very well to do man, who runs his own business, spending approximately 60-70 hours each week at the office, and even spends 10-12 hours at home each week on his Computer and on the phone, working out business details, he is a hard working man, who considers himself a patriotic American.

Jacob is a Christian as well, who has experiences with the Lord ranging back as far as three decades. He was once very active in his Church, and had a ministry to the youth, with a strong emphasis on personal evangelism. He has however, within the last two years, returned from a long hiatus from Church attendance, and his fellow Christians look at him with skepticism and concern, assuming that his spiritual life is hanging in the balance of so many years away from the Church. He has a job, and is happily married with one Child, also a Boy. Jacob spends many hours each week reading the word and praying. He has never left his faith behind. In fact, does not even really have an explanation as to why he stopped attending Church. Having returned after many years, Jacob has noticed a very powerful change that has come over the people he used to know.

Pastor J. Smythe is the senior pastor of the Church that Curt and Jacob grew up in. He is a kind-hearted, easy going man who fancies himself a peacemaker, and who pride's himself in his ability to show great tolerance for other's perspective on the scriptures, and the Christian Life in general. He often shows great tact and diplomacy when discussing the word with his parishioners, and gently uses the scriptures to mentor them in the direction of what the word says on matters, rather than entering theological debate, or lecturing them. Pastor Smythe has heard Curt's side of the story, and expects to have to use his mentoring skills to straighten out Jacob's false impressions of world events, and of his view of American leadership. Let's listen in...

Pastor Smythe: Hello Gentlemen, thank you for coming in. Why don't we start our time together with some prayer?

Jacob: Amen.

Curt: Yes, let's.

Pastor Smythe: Lord, I thank you for Curt, and for Jacob. I thank you for their continued interest in your word. I thank you for their lives, which we have been able to watch progress into manhood right here in our own little Church. I pray that you would guide our conversation this night in your Spirit, and that you would have your way with us. We submit to you now, and we open our hearts to your truth, and we pray that you would give us the humility to accept your word, and to be obedient to it as we live before you...

Curt: Yes Lord!

Pastor Smythe: that we would honor you not only with our words, and in our hearts, but with our deeds, and with our lives. That we would be ready to stand up for YOUR truth, and YOUR word, rather than our own...

Jacob: Yes Lord God.

Pastor Smythe: We claim your promise, that when two or more are gathered in your name, that you will be here among us. Guide and strengthen us as we share together in your spirit. We pray this in Jesus precious name, Amen

Jacob: Amen.

Curt: Amen.

Pastor Smythe: Well, as I understand it, you attended our Men's bible study recently Jacob!

Jacob: Yes, I had been out of the Church for quite some time, I'm not really sure why, but I decided to get back into fellowship with the folks here at the church.

Pastor Smythe: Well, that's fantastic Jacob! We are very happy to see you again, and I am glad you have returned to fellowship here.

Jacob: Thank you Pastor. The feeling is mutual.

Curt: The feeling is mutual for me too Pastor, but as you know, I have some deep concerns for Jacob's spiritual state, after having been out of the Church for so long. As I explained to you when I asked for this meeting, those concerns stem from a conversation Jacob and I had after that same Men's study that he attended.

Pastor Smythe: Yes Curt, I know why we are here tonight. Jacob, Curt came to me very concerned that you have developed some attitudes concerning American involvement in Iraq, and in fact, he seems to think those attitudes may extend to the President as well.

Jacob: Well Pastor, if you are referring to how appalled I was with the contents of that particular bible study I attended, I would have to say that Curt's assessment of the situation is accurate. I assume Curt will not deny that the contents of that particular study ended up being about the American response to the attacks of 9-11, rather than the Book of Romans, as I was led to believe the study was about. It was THAT content that I had a problem with. The regular topic for that evening was not the problem.

Curt: Well yes, a few of the Men had discussed the subject before the study, and I felt led to discuss those things rather than the usual content, since this seemed to be heavy on the Men's hearts that night. Sometimes the Spirit leads to things we don't intend to discuss you know.

Jacob: I agree with that Curt. In fact, I believe that is exactly what happened that night.

Curt: Does that indicate a change of attitude since the last time we talked Jacob? Have you changed your mind about these things? You are agreeing that the spirit led that Bible study?

Jacob: No, not at all Curt, I haven't changed one bit in the last 15 years. I simply said that I do agree that the Spirit intended for the subject to change that night, as I believe he intended for You and I to have the conversation that we had that evening, which led to this meeting we are in now, which I also believe is of the Spirit.

Pastor Smythe: Ok, I can agree that sometimes in extreme cases, and in extreme cases only, the topic of study could be altered by the spirit, although I would hope that the contents of our Men's and Women's bible studies would remain on track for the most part.

Curt: Oh yes, don't get the wrong idea here, we stay on task in the study. This particular night I felt led to minister to the important issues that were on the Men's hearts that night. I assume since you let me lead the study, that you are confident in my ability to follow the lead of the spirit on these things?

Pastor Smythe: Yes, the church has every confidence in your ability to lead the study Curt. Jacob, why don't you share with me what it was that, as you put it, appalled you so much about what was said in that study that night.

Jacob: Curt led the study with a speech that was like a political soapbox speech about how there needed to be justice for the families that lost loved one's in the 9-11 attacks, how terrorists needed to be basically mass murdered and removed from the earth. He then went on to proclaim how George bush is a "godly" man, and that the war in Iraq was his mission for God. I found this speech to be both offensive, and entirely scripturally unsound. At the end of the study, he led with a prayer that basically rebuked sharply, no even called accursed, anyone disagreeing with Mr. Bush's "War on Terror". He finished off with a number of praises for God's "Holy nation", and that God would continue to bless America.

Curt: See what I am talking about Pastor? He comes in here after more than a decade of being out of the Church, and starts judging. He obviously judges President Bush as something other than Christian, and even though the Church as a whole supports him, HE can sit here and say that we are all wrong, and he even told me that God was wroth with this kind of thinking.

Pastor Smythe: Ok Curt, let me discuss this with Jacob, and let's see where this thinking comes from shall we?

Curt: Ok, however you wish to proceed is fine with me, because you will see that what I am saying is true.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, it seems that you feel that, A. the War on Terror is something other than what we think it is, B. That Mr. Bush is something other than Christian, and C. that America is not a Christian nation? Can you give me some basis for these assumptions?

Jacob: Sure, I would be happy to explain how I feel about these things. The first thing you mentioned was the "War on Terror". Yes Pastor, I definitely think the War on Terror is not what it is being portrayed to be by our government. Look what they did here: They get our approval to go into Afghanistan and "get justice" for the 3000 families that lost loved ones in the attacks of 9-11. They oust the government there, and begin the "hunt" for Osama Bin Laden, who claimed responsibility for the attacks. So far so good, they are where we told them to go, doing what we the people told them to do. Not that I even agree with that, but at least they are doing what they were commissioned to do.

Pastor Smythe: Ok, I see so far, please continue.

Jacob: Now if you remember, shortly before these events, Saddam Hussein put Iraq on the Euro.

Pastor Smythe: Yes, I remember that.

Jacob: Now, just weeks after removing the Government in Afghanistan, they completely drop the ball in Afghanistan. Having not captured Osama Bin Laden, which was the reason we sent our military there, and they take 130,000 troops and go into Iraq. While claiming a DISPROVED connection between Iraq and the attacks of 9-11, they take over the 2nd largest Oil reserve on the planet, and Iraq miraculously finds itself back on the dollar.

Pastor Smythe: So you feel they already had motivation to go into Iraq, and that it had nothing to do with the war on terror?

Jacob: If that isn't painfully obvious to the American public by now, and I might add to the Christian Church, I believe there is a tremendous problem afoot.

Pastor Smythe: Well, Jacob you do know that the President, and most of the rest of the world agree that the war in Iraq is the center of the war on terror right?

Jacob: Pastor, the reason that Iraq is the center of the War on Terror right now is because we put 130,000 American troops there. In a region that terrorists don't have to cross the ocean to get to, of course they are going to go there. WE made Iraq the center of the War on terror.

I mean take a look at what has been accomplished by this war so far, and you will see the real reasons why this government needed to go into Iraq, and why they took advantage of the attacks on 9-11 to do so. America now controls the Oil rich land of Iraq, and that same country is now back on the dollar. All the corporate billionaire friends of this administration are taking in billions and billions of dollars on the continued operations there. Meanwhile, all 4 of the reasons we were told we needed to go into Iraq have been proven to be false. The only reason that has remained has been that Saddam Hussein needed to be ousted, and that isn't even what this was about in the first place. Osama Bin Laden is free, and more attention is given to Al-Za-Cowardly than is given to him. Obviously because he is in Iraq, and that is where they want to concentrate on now. Bin Laden is hardly even mentioned anymore, beyond a News blurb every once in a while to say they are still looking.

Pastor Smythe: Wouldn't you agree that Saddam Hussein was a terrible dictator, and that he killed millions of his own people over the years? You can't see the reasons why this man needed to be taken from power?

Jacob: Let me ask you this pastor: before Desert Storm in 1991, Iraq had a 6 million man military force. Just prior to this recent occupation, there were roughly 300,000 Soldiers in Iraq's military. We read reports of nearly a million deserters because of the Desert Storm operation. that's 1.3 million men. What do you suppose happened to the other 4.7 million men? They were killed by the American military in Desert Storm, and in the following years of enforcing the no fly zones. So we can see that the Bushes have killed millions of Iraq's own people too, and we haven't yet discussed the hundreds of thousands of NON military people that have been killed in Iraq between 1991 and now. Does this mean that the Bushes need to be removed from power?

Curt: That is just ridiculous. How can one equate what Saddam Hussein did to his own people, with the deaths of his military in Desert Storm. America went to Iraq to free an entire country from an evil dictator. How can you say the deaths of his soldiers is the same thing.

Jacob: There is some more of that worldly understanding right there Curt. That is exactly the way the world perceives things. When they do it, it is evil and unjust, and when we do it, it is a godly mission. Yet, you still to this day have not offered one word of scripture to defend your position. I have heard nothing but man's reasoning and justification for what's happening, no scripture to back it up at all.

Pastor Smythe: Obviously Jacob, we wouldn't be able to call those two things the same.

Jacob: Yes, and most of the Christian Church in America today won't either. That is exactly why I agreed to come to this meeting, and it is exactly the kind of thinking that has to be spoken to by the Church. When the kingdoms of this world do this kind of thing, it is to be expected. It is the way the world is. My problem comes when the Church lends its moral, and spiritual approval to these actions, when we are clearly told in scripture not to live or act this way. When the Church tries to cast our Lord as one who waves an American flag, and is a man of war. This is as close to blasphemy as one can get in my opinion. It is an incredible betrayal of the principles that Jesus taught us, and of the life that he lived before men's eyes.

Curt: Yes Jacob, your opinion. Let's keep that in mind.

Jacob: It is an opinion that is supported by the life and the words of Jesus Christ Curt. You people that think Jesus is a man of war amaze me. That he would be waving an American flag if here were here today. THAT is what is ridiculous Curt. The fact that you haven't said one word about all that has been said here, that they dropped the ball in Afghanistan, that their buddies are making billions, that Iraq is back on the dollar, that America now has a solid source of oil, that the prices of that Oil are so high now that WE control it, while the average American pays 3 bucks for a gallon of Gas. What about how Chevron Texaco, Exxon Mobil, and Halliburton are having their best years ever. What about these things Curt? I haven't heard anything from Pastor Smythe on these items either, and you know why? Because they are the truth Curt, that's why.

Pastor Smythe: Although I do see some of what you are saying as true Jacob, I don't see how the resulting deaths of Iraqi military since 1991 can be equated with the murder of millions of Iraqis by Saddam Hussein.

Jacob: I have always respected you Pastor, but this stuff has to be looked at. The end result is still millions of Iraqi deaths. How can American officials say that millions of Iraqi deaths is the best way to stop millions of Iraqi deaths? It's insanity to think that insanity stops insanity. My concern is, how will the American Christian distance himself from those millions of deaths when he stands before God, while he lends his moral support, and even his spiritual support to this worldly mess! America is not the kingdom of God, and the Church should not be engaging in this stuff.

Pastor Smythe: I don't think anyone believes that America is the kingdom of God Jacob.

Jacob: Then why does the Leadership of the American Christian Church think that it is it's duty to enter into the political arena and "take back the country, and the world for Christ". It is evident in the writings of Pat Robertson, Chuck Swindoll, D. James Kennedy, Charles Stanley, and many other prominent Christian leaders. Why do American Christians like Curt equate their citizenship in America with their citizenship in the kingdom of God? Do you agree with the Church supporting War and Bloodshed to further the Gospel Pastor? "Freedom and Liberty"? "Democracy"?

Curt: I do not equate my citizenship in the kingdom of God with my citizenship in America Jacob. I support my government's actions, and I support our President. I don't judge him like you do.

Jacob: No, you simply turn a blind eye to the atrocities that his administration is committing, and tout it's actions as a godly mission. You DO equate your citizenships Curt. You said that night in that study that America is a Godly nation, and that what George Bush is doing is of God. Even though you have NO scripture to back those positions. You prayed that people who disagree with this war are accursed. When you tailor your spiritual confessions to fit the government "party line" so to speak, you have sold your Christianity into slavery to the actions of that government. When you say, "America is a Godly nation and what it is doing is of God" you HAVE made your citizenship in God's kingdom one and the same with your citizenship in America.

Curt: So what are you saying Jacob, we aught to stand around and wait for Islamic terrorists to come over here and KILL US?? That we should just stand by and not defend our Country? And what is wrong with taking this country back for Christ? You talk about how I haven't offered any scripture to back up my position, what scripture do you offer to support that thinking?

Jacob: You haven't heard a word I have said here Curt, have you. In Iraq today, we are NOT fighting the people that came over here and attacked us! That has been my point all along. They lied about it, and you are so zealous for revenge against whoever killed all those people on 9-11, that you don't even care about that. But as far as revenge is concerned, and even if Iraq WAS the "War on Terror", I am glad you asked that Curt. As far as Islamic terrorists coming over here and killing us? I can think of a few scriptures that support my position. for instance what about

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution?

and what about

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service.

As if that doesn't describe exactly what a Muslim does when he kills Christians? What did Jesus tell us to do about that kind of treatment, how does he tell us to respond? Well, for starters Curt, how about

Mathew 5: 43-45 you have heard it said Love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you. That you may be children of your Father in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

And in the Garden of Gethsemane, when Peter drew a sword and cut off the priest's servant's ear? Jesus didn't even want his followers to raise a sword to defend him.

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Revelation 13:10 He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Do you think this scripture applies to the Muslim, but does not apply to you? Yes, Muslims kill in the name of God, and that is a heinous evil. Why is it not heinous when America does it? Just because they live this way is not a call for us to.

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

What did Paul say Curt?

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

There is a clear message that exists as a theme throughout the New Testament, and that message is that the followers of Jesus Christ do not take up the sword in defense of the Gospel, in defense of their land, or even in defense of their own lives. We were told to expect those things, and to rejoice in them for herein is manifest the Son's and daughters of God.

Curt: I'm sorry but I just don't believe that we are to stand by and let others kill us.

Jacob: Then you just don't believe the scriptures, and you don't believe the word of God as it was told to us through his Son.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, I don't know of I would go as far as to say that Curt doesn't believe the scriptures on this. That is a very harsh judgment that I don't think any of us should make.

Jacob: Pastor, the words just came out of his own mouth. I did not make a judgment, I just said what his confession meant. Jesus told us that we would be hated, mistreated, persecuted, reviled, beaten, and even killed because we are his followers. He told us to rejoice in those circumstances, He told us not to take up the sword, He told us that we are not greater than our Lord, and that if they did these things to him, they would do them to us.

How does that stack up with this "preemptive strike" philosophy the government is peddling on the Church? How does that stack up with the Church raising their fists and praising what George Bush's administration is doing in the world today? Would God raise up men that would bear false witness against other world leaders, and kill millions of people to promote his word? I think not. When a man says in the face of these scriptures that he simply doesn't believe that we should live by them, he is saying he doesn't believe the word of God or the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, your knowledge of the scriptures is good, and a lot of what you are saying is true, I won't deny that. However, I think it is important not to get too caught up in something like this, or to get off on a tangent about things. I also think the scripture teaches that we are to test the spirits whether or not they are of God. I would remind you that Curt is a respected member of this church, that has been faithfully serving the Church for many years, and he brought you here tonight out of genuine concern for your spiritual welfare.

Jacob: I don't have a problem with Curt Pastor. And I understand why he brought about this meeting. It is the same concern for him in which I agreed to come to this meeting in the first place. His confessions, and I might add confessions that are being taught to the Men in the Bible study that you allow him to teach, are unscriptural. They deny the very foundational principles of what Jesus taught us. Furthermore, I don't think the fact that Curt is a respected member of this church makes any difference to the importance of that conversation. James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

As you well know, and as you said just now, we are to try the spirits whether they are of God, and I can not remain silent, because I believe that this nationalism, this patriotism, this new political activist stance the Church is taking, and the way Christians are literally ignoring the truths that are paraded on the News every night for them, just to maintain that George Bush is a Christian, so they can "support their country" is a spirit that is most definitely NOT of God.

Curt: Unbelievable.

Jacob: Unbelievable? Apparently so Curt, Apparently so.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, you have given me a lot to think about here tonight. Your words are very persuasive, and you have a lot of scripture to back up what you are saying. I have a difficult time understanding how the entire Church in America could have lost its contact with the holy sprit, and I have a hard time believing that so many of the leadership don't have strong scriptural backing for the things they are teaching in this country. Our denomination stands very strong behind This President, and I have a hard time believing that this is not of God. I am going to have to pray about these things, and decide what to do here.

Jacob: Decide what to do?

Pastor Smythe: Yes, decide what to do. You may as well know, that Curt has asked in light of these developments whether or not it is wise to have you speaking this way in the congregation of this Church. He has asked me to consider if it would be wise to ask you not to attend Church functions, until we can sort this out.

Curt: Jacob, the church is more united on this thing than they have ever been on anything, and we can not have those in the church spreading discord among the brethren. All of the mainstream Christian leadership are saying it is the Church's responsibility to keep detractors from bringing division in among the Church. You are speaking words that are going to cause many Christians to second guess the leadership of the Church and that can not be allowed to happen.

Pastor Smythe: Jacob, it is not my intention to have you removed from the church, nor is it my goal to stifle discussion about these matters among Christians. However, as Pastor of this Church it is my responsibility to keep order, and to submit to the authorities that God has placed over me in the Church. I have a meeting with the regional leadership of our denomination in a couple of days. I will bring up the things you have said here, and I will point out the scriptures that you have mentioned here, and will see what the leadership has to say. We will go from there.

Jacob: I see. I have a question at this point. I assume the scriptures that talk about submitting to authorities, and that God has placed all authority in place, are what would cause you gentlemen to believe that we as Christians are to support the government, and to obey them?

Curt: That is exactly what I am saying. I am also saying that the scriptures that say that casting out those who cause division and strife in the Church, and to have no part with them are the reason why you need to be asked not to fellowship here.

Pastor Smythe: What I am saying Jacob, is that those scriptures do exist as well as the ones that you have mentioned here. I think we need to look at the big picture, and to decide what is best for the Church. In my case, being the senior Pastor here, I have to look at the big picture, and decide what is best for THIS congregation.

Jacob: So then, when Paul, Peter, and most of the disciples stood before the rulers, and leaders of their day, and said

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

You don't see that as the scripture teaching that we are in fact to obey our leaders, and honor their laws, until it conflicts with the Word, and will of God? Were the disciples fighting against God when they refused to obey the leadership even to their own deaths? Was Jesus "judging his leaders", when he called the chief priests of the temple hypocrites?

Pastor Smythe: Like I said Jacob, you have a very persuasive argument, and I do not take lightly the things you have said here. Yes, I agree with you that we are not to obey leadership that instructs us to disobey God, and I will be praying about these things, and I promise you, I will present them to the leadership. I will contact you again later in the week.

Curt: The Church is in the middle of a massive revival right now Jacob, and it is every Christian's duty to keep the enemy from destroying that.

Jacob: You call what we are seeing in the Church today a revival Curt? Just because thousands and thousands of revenge crazed backsliders have flocked back to the Church because the Church supports the War on Terror? Because the "newly packaged" Gospel of prosperity and tolerance, is drawing the world to sit in church seats? Because the repentanceless gospel of "I'm ok you're ok" has been conformed to an image that the world can accept, and therefore comes flocking in? I don't call that a revival Curt I call it Apostasy, and the scripture said this day would come. every single thing that is going on in the world right now, the scripture said it would come.

Curt: Is this where you tell us that America is the Prophetic Babylon Jacob? Is this where you tell us that the War on terror is the beginning of the Gog/Magog war?

Pastor Smythe: Well I certainly don't know if I could say...

Jacob: No. This is not where I say those things Curt. If they are true, they will become clear in time to those who are open to the revelation that God will give them, and those who have ears to hear the truth. But I will tell you this, to those who do not have ears that are open for the truth, and to those who do not have a love for the truth, all that will come is strong delusion.

Pastor Smythe: ok gentlemen, I think we have accomplished about all we can accomplish here tonight. Jacob, let's plan on getting together again next week, just you and I, and we will discuss this some more.

Curt: Pastor...

Pastor Smythe: No Curt, I am not going to make a decision here tonight about Jacob fellowshipping here at the Church. As I said, I will bring this issue before the leadership, and we will go from there. Jacob, I will call you this week and we will decide on a time to meet?

Jacob: That will be fine by me Pastor. So you will be "Casting me out of the synagogue" at that time Pastor? Is that what is going to happen here?

Pastor Smythe: Not if I can help it Jacob, that is the last thing on my mind at this point.

Jacob: Ok, goodnight Gentlemen.

Turning to leave Jacob feels a sense of foreboding, knowing the probable outcome of this matter. He feels a great sense of loss and sorrow, as these men literally walk in the footsteps of end times prophecy. He is determined to pray, and seek that God's will be done in this situation, and that he will have the Grace to reflect the Spirit of God as this situation unfolds. Curt remains in the Pastor's office After Jacob leaves...

Curt: Pastor, I don't understand why you didn't ask Jacob not to attend Church functions until this matter is resolved. More importantly, until he cleanses his attitude, and listens to the leadership God has placed in the Church today. Did you see how he judges everyone as wrong to support the President? How he judges the President himself?

Pastor Smythe: Let me explain to you why I didn't do that Curt. Because on the matters we discussed in here tonight, that man cleaned our clocks both scripturally, and spiritually. I was completely without the words, and more importantly without scriptures to defend against what he said in here tonight, and I think that is a serious issue. I am going to have to pray about the things said in here tonight, and I am going to have to try that spirit if it is or is not of God. I am also not willing to say at this time that it is not of God.

Curt: You can't be serious!

Pastor Smythe: I am serious Curt. Deadly serious. I will be bringing the things he said before the leadership with some real questions in my heart, and I will be looking for some answers. I will call you after the meeting and we will discuss it then.

Curt: Ok Pastor, I will look forward to your call, and I will be praying for you. Goodnight.

Pastor Smythe: Thank you. Good night.