[amillerCA128] I checked out your website, and I gotta say I'm a bit offended by some of the conspiracy theories. As a mason I can assure you I'm not a Satan worshiper, nor do I have plans to take over the world or anything else. I try to be a good Christian, and in truth the lessons masonry teaches have helped me improve my behavior towards others and myself. I'd hope you would take a deeper look at us not judge me or my fellow lodge brothers by old preconceived notions.

[james] I haven't judged you or any mason and I haven't labeled you a Satan worshipper at all. in fact most of the information I've included regarding the freemasons comes directly from either the bible or from authoritative Masonic authors - all of which agree that freemasonry is like a fraternity within a fraternity....that the higher degrees purposely deceive the lower.

In any case, you mentioned you try to be a good Christian, so I encourage you to look into and pray about these important pieces of scripture:

Genesis chapter 11 - the bible specifically identifies the masons building up the tower of Babel and Jesus specifically mentions them in Matthew chapter 21 when He says, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?" and this scripture can be cross-referenced in the gospels Mark & Luke as well as Acts chapter 4, Romans 9, 1 Peter chapter 2, Psalm 118 and Ephesians 2

The fact is Jesus taught very clearly about light and darkness and how they cannot mix, even though darkness often takes on shades of grey to fool us. In the same lessons Christ told us no one can serve two masters.

Thank you for taking the time to check out my work, though. I hope you'll look into this.

[amillerCA128] No trust Me I understand your getting this from well known sources on the subject. But problem is I tend to think these individuals see things through tinted lenses toward this subject and aren't really willing to be open about it. A lot of theories about Freemasonry come from Albert pike and from others who have done a poor job explaining religious beliefs to the world.

Personally I think Pike is a bit if a wak-job when it come to understanding religion, I think he was one of the better Masons of North America though, and influenced the development of Masonry in the South greatly. His works on religions aren't solely focused toward Christianity and apply to masons and non masons alike, he was scholar of all religions, so like any academic I think he might have gotten his head a bit overloaded on one topic. This I believe is why people misunderstand and misquote his work so frequently.

When you refer to the scriptures mentioning Masons, I really cant understand how you see these as having anything to do with the Fraternity of today. Freemasonry was founded in England 400 years ago, Jesus lived 2000+ years ago, the tower of Babel much further back in time.

I know a lot of 33 degree masons and to be honest the Scottish Rite the only rite with that degree does note put a great deal of training, or secrecy into their degree work, to obtain the highest degree is more of a matter of politics and seniority. the only degrees that have a great deal of importance are the lower three. The higher are matters of social status and for differ recreation benefits, different appendent organizations such as the Shrine, or the rites have different social functions. There isn't anything anti-Christian in them, in fact while many lower degrees allow other religions, most higher degrees are exclusively Christian, and some Masonic lodges are split by church denomination. I would like to suggest that instead of taking sources and publishing them you take time to meet some masons in your area, and perhaps attend an open function, they could explain these things better than I could, think of it as investigative journalism.

But that's just a suggestion, I'm they kind of person that prefers to experience something rather than reading about it before I make up my mind on an issue. I enjoyed discussing this with you, If you want to talk some more please feel free to message me anytime.

.....

[amillerCA128] I messaged a gentleman on myspace regarding a completely unrelated topic. When he began promoting his website to me I checked it out. I then found out there were pages regarding the occult and of couse we were included among the Occult New World Order types. A discussion/debate began, and I was surprised to lean that somehow I'm responsible for the Tower of Babel. Did you guys know that?

[BroJerry] I have heard the, "no one can serve two masters" before too. I say, I guess I should quit my job, cause my boss sure acts like a master. Anyway, the Officer titles of the Lodge are derived from the medieval judicial structure. So Master, is not actually the meaning of how it was used then.

[amillerCA128] Yeah, the first time I hear master used in the Masonic sense I admit I was a bit confused and once I understood all the roots of masonry it makes perfect sense, but why try to understand something when you can just condemn it?

[Addison II]

Genesis chapter 11 - the bible specifically identifies the masons building up the tower of Babel and Jesus specifically mentions them in Matthew chapter 21 when He says, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?"

The scripture referenced above is referring to the religious leaders of the people (Pharisees and Sadducees) who were supposed to be the Masters at helping their flock build their spiritual temple rejecting Jesus as the son of God or the cornerstone of salvation. It's not referring to Operative Masons rejecting Jesus at all. The scripture was meant to prove a point of how the religious leaders of the day practiced hypocrisy and lead people away from God rather than bringing them to him by examples.

Also the reference to Masons building the tower of Babel is correct but, who else could have had the knowledge to build a brick building back then? That's like saying that since people work at McDonalds then they are responsible for the obesity of America.

By the way Worshipful Master essentially means a man very knowledgeable in the field of Speculative Masonry who is worthy of respect. So you are not serving two masters but rather showing respect to the man who governs and oversees the lodge.

[amillerCA128] Well the tower of Babel project itself of course employed the use of operative masons for its construction. But how someone or a group of people take that and apply this to an organization that didn't exist till thousands of years later is beyond me. Their are basically implying that Masons were responsible for the actions of Nimrod and his reasons for the construction to begin with. They also overlook the fact that all these actions were prior to the confounding of the tongues of men, which essentially ended known civilization on earth and split men into tribes and factions, so all the collective knowledge was basically lost. That being so how could a culture that no longer exists be the same culture responsible for Freemasonry, as implied.

[Danu_Hale] Well, initially, what happened, was (depending on the version or, interpretation of the bible you use), God scattered these people worldwide. initially, if said event is the case, then, the culture itself would not have been wiped out, just broken up, and in separate languages, and what not.

However, there was a flood after said events, according to the bible, and in that flood, only one family survived. so initially, said culture and events on FreeMasonry, or the Masonic craft of building would have had to have "floated" around with them, being the only survivors. Which person in this ark was the one who carried it over, if said event is true is unknown. But it serves a few points.

It wouldn't be that families fault (after all God chose them to survive), and they did, out of everyone in the world. therefore, philosophically speaking, would it not bear to mind TGAOTU in this form of thought, didn't have anything against FreeMasonry, if it was carried over?

That is a strong argumentative point not expressed, and I felt the need to say something here, I just had to think on it, cause something stirred in me to speak when I had first seen this a few days ago. Pretty strong point, I would say. Also note that many cultures thus streamed from this one family as well, as they spread out and propagated the Earth. With that in mind, many theological arguments, points and conversation woudl stir from such, but the initial point is, why did God really scatter this initial tribe of humankind, if he wanted and knew FreeMasonry was to spread. and if that is the case, what of the other mysteries that follow suit?

Being 22, I know I am not the only person in the world to speculate or wonder about all this knowledge, but like said events.......don't dig in the past too much, you are bound to get dirty. so I will leave it at that, but you should make this point clear to said anti, and bring us his response. should be interesting to see what their argumentative point would be.

You cannot, after all, shake or move a home built on proper foundation, but one built on sand, as their argument was. All it did is take minor thought, a bit of breath, and nimble of finger to bring their point crashing down surely as they would view God did that culture. Everyone needs someone to blame I guess, but the most they could do, is think a bit into their historical standpoint, before building something of little value in any sense other then them wasting thought.

[amillerCA128]

However, there was a flood after said events, according to the bible, and in that flood, only one family survived. so initially, said culture and events on FreeMasonry, or the Masonic craft of building would have had to have "floated" around with them, being the only survivors. Which person in this ark was the one who carried it over, if said event is true is unknown. But it serves a few points.

Well I agree with this one point that the Flood would have wiped out a lot of larger cultural problems of the times caused by the wickedness in the various societies. However I have always believed and interpreted the scripture to mean that God instructed Noah to bring "two of every flesh aboard the Ark" this meaning not only animals but humans as well to maintain the genetic integrity of the human race.

As a southerner I can tell you what happens when there's to much inbreeding, and I don't think the lord would want that for the whole planet. I believe righteous or at the very least those who were unbelievers of their kinds teachings were called to the Ark just as all other beings were. As I said this is a belief and is something I've heard debated. Either way its something to ponder

[Chepex21] I speak write and read 3 languages (Italian, Spanish, English) and if you look at the Latin root for "Master" would be "Maestro" that means "teacher" and worshipful in Spanish would be "venerable" that is also used commonly to refer to an elder "venerable anciano" "worshipful elder" it does not mean you are going to actually Worship an old guy just for the fact that he or she is OLD but you will respect the amount of knowledge acquired in those years passed.

I love semantics but I don't like people giving words meanings they don't have specially if they are trying to change the meaning of the scripture to accommodate their beliefs.

I'm not a freemason but I respect the right of everyone to do whatever they like to do as long as it does not hurt anybody else, and this antis are really mean people, they say they are Christians but they have forgotten who is their brother according to Jesus.

Love not hate is the key to everything.

[PHQ96] Very well said. A Honored Queen or Master Councilor or Worthy Advisor has reached that position because of their knowledge and time in their organization, just as the WM has in his lodge. And all of them will return to the ranks as well.

[g19] at least the website looks better than freemasonrywatch

[Danu_Hale]

Well I agree with this one point that the Flood would have wiped out a lot of larger cultural problems of the times caused by the wickedness in the various societies. However I have always believed and interpreted the scripture to mean that God instructed Noah to bring "two of every flesh aboard the Ark" this meaning not only animals but humans as well to maintain the genetic integrity of the human race. As a southerner I can tell you what happens when there's to much inbreeding, and I don't think the lord would want that for the whole planet. I believe righteous or at the very least those who were unbelievers of their kinds teachings were called to the Ark just as all other beings were. As I said this is a belief and is something I've heard debated. Either way its something to ponder

Interesting belief, indeed. I would like to know of someone who reads the original language said was written in, to see how it translates effectively in their terminology. Also, if said point is true, then either way, God knew that such would continue on, and if such did, under that point, it wasn't deemed unnecessary.

In one side of the light behind the family being only Noah's....God has control over such genetic defects. also note, his son, had wives.....and to further such notions, we all came from adam and eve, unless people know of and believe the Lillith myth. but that's another topic all together. Either way the knowledge continued on, and, in that sense, it's all that matters in relevance to the argument originally posed, by said strange guy....

I like the points brought up else where, as well, about relevant master, I learned something that way. *shrugs* In my view, who cares if freemasonry had "masters" don't certain structures of higher thinking? even the word, sensei. means master. I always took it not only as someone you look up to with relevance and respect, but in as such, people you look up to for what they know, and you wish to. that is enough right there, to respect the title, in essence, and relevant compartivism, to what they mean in other tongues.

[ChrisD1963] The only reason for this type of ignorance is because when they where younger they where dropped on their heads too many times. LOL

[Danu_Hale] you see, I knew there was something more to it then just sheer ignorance. now the light shows.

[axis] what would we do without people such as this to look out for us and show us the error of our ways ? ;P

[james] We read in Genesis 3:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened.

Here we see the occult origin (I hope we can all agree on this) we see mankind tempted by the devil with the promise of…1) our eyes will be opened; 2) we will be like God; 3) knowledge of good and evil. In a nutshell, we were tempted with the promise of more knowledge and more power.

God kept His word and cursed us and the devil.

1,500+ years passed between the fall of man and the great flood, which occurred because man’s use of that knowledge and power overwhelmed the world with wickedness and violence.

Let’s keep in mind the original source of this knowledge and power; and we can observe its consequences in Genesis 6 and 7

Danu Hale made an error in stating the tower of Babel occurred before the flood, in fact it was Nimrod, a descendant of Noah (Noah –> Ham –> Cush –> Nimrod) who founded Babylon.

According to the records of ancient Babylon, Nimrod's wife was Semiramis. In Assyria she was called Astarte; in Egypt, Isis; in Greece, Aphrodite; in Rome, Venus. Semiramis was the first high priestess of idolatry. According to legend, she conceived a son miraculously by a ray of light from the sun god (Lucifer). When the child was born, he was named Tammuz and Semiramis offered him up as the “promised deliverer” of the earth. When Tammuz reached manhood he was killed by a wild boar and was raised from the dead after 40 days of his mother's lamenting. A "mother-child" cult developed from this legend which spread throughout the entire ancient world. In Assyria it was known as Ishtar and Tammuz; in Phoenicia, Astarte and Baal; in Egypt, Isis and Osiris (Horus); in Greece, Aphrodite and Eros; in Rome, Venus and Cupid. This pagan religion established a new ritual: worship by offering wafers to Semiramis as the queen of heaven, 40 days of abstinence (lent) memorializing the 40 days of her weeping, followed by a feast to celebrate Tammuz's resurrection. Part of this celebration was the exchange of Ishtar (Easter) eggs, symbolizing new life. There are passages in the Bible which mention this occult practice:

When all the men who were aware that their wives were burning sacrifices to other gods, along with all the women who were standing by, as a large assembly, including all the people who were living in Pathros in the land of Egypt, responded to Jeremiah, saying, "As for the message that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we are not going to listen to you! But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune. But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine. And," said the women, "when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her sacrificial cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her?" Then Jeremiah said to all the people, to the men and women--even to all the people who were giving him such an answer--saying, "As for the smoking sacrifices that you burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your forefathers, your kings and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them and did not all this come into His mind? So the LORD was no longer able to endure it, because of the evil of your deeds, because of the abominations which you have committed; thus your land has become a ruin, an object of horror and a curse, without an inhabitant, as it is this day." (Jeremiah 44)

And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the appearance which I saw in the plain. Then He said to me, "Son of man, raise your eyes now toward the north " So I raised my eyes toward the north, and behold, to the north of the altar gate was this idol of jealousy at the entrance. And He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations which the house of Israel are committing here, so that I would be far from My sanctuary? But yet you will see still greater abominations." Then He brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, a hole in the wall. He said to me, "Son of man, now dig through the wall." So I dug through the wall, and behold, an entrance. And He said to me, "Go in and see the wicked abominations that they are committing here." So I entered and looked, and behold, every form of creeping things and beasts and detestable things, with all the idols of the house of Israel, were carved on the wall all around. Standing in front of them were seventy elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them, each man with his censer in his hand and the fragrance of the cloud of incense rising. Then He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are committing in the dark, each man in the room of his carved images? For they say, 'The LORD does not see us; the LORD has forsaken the land.'" And He said to me, "Yet you will see still greater abominations which they are committing." Then He brought me to the entrance of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and behold, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz. He said to me, "Do you see this, son of man? Yet you will see still greater abominations than these." Then He brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun. He said to me, "Do you see this, son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they have committed here, that they have filled the land with violence and provoked Me repeatedly? For behold, they are putting the twig to their nose. "Therefore, I indeed will deal in wrath. My eye will have no pity nor will I spare; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, yet I will not listen to them." (Ezekiel 8)

The tower of Babel was also called the Tower of Jupiter Belus. The “queen of heaven” and the king of the gods, Juno and Jupiter, were none other than Semiramis and Nimrod. The first mention of masonry (NOT FREEMASONRY) is in Genesis 11 during the construction of the tower.

Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. They said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly." And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. They said, "Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth." The LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. (Genesis 11:1-9)

When God saw the tower being built, He said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." And these men’s common purpose is stated as well; they said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth." Here again is another example of more knowledge, more power for they attempted to build a tower that would reach the throne of the Almighty God Himself – how is this purpose any different from what’s written in Isaiah 14 about Lucifer’s attempts:

How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit. (Isaiah 14)

And of course God did not approve of any of this which is why He confused their language and scattered them across the world. Logically the occult scattered with them.

Now I am not yet making the connection between these ancient masons and modern freemasonry, though it should not be overlooked what purpose mankind utilized his masonry skills for…..now our eyes are open…..now we have become like God…..now we have become creators and we understand our potential….it was the earliest masons who celebrated these wonderful abilities. Indeed we are the only creatures on earth who are capable of these great things – we are the masters of our planet! It’s absurd to deny a god-complex might result from this.

We should also consider the fact that primitive construction was not quite as easy as we’ve made it these days so we can safely assume building projects took much more time and much more muscle – probably more than any of us would want to handle today.

And if you look at the remains or read the stories about ancient civilizations you can find two important trends common in most of them: 1) spirituality of the masses directed through Gnosticism 2) the most fascinating of all structures are those of worship. Put 2 and 2 together here – did ancient masons honor the true living God by building temples for demons?

The Masons built Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem which honored the true living God, although it should be noted the master mason who built the temple was killed by the Jews because he would not reveal to them the secrets of his craft; Solomon had those Jews put to death. However, the spirituality of the Jews did eventually become corrupted….this corruption was a direct result of Gnosticism – and we can see plenty of evidence of this by simply reading kabalistic and Talmudic doctrine as they are compared to the holy word of God. And God punished this betrayal, just as He prophesied.

It does not take long when you look at the incredible amount of prophecy and forewarning God has provided us to understand what omnipotence truly is – that God’s wisdom and knowledge have no limit which means He knows all from beginning to end – that He knew each one of us intimately at the foundation of the world, He knew He was going to have to destroy the earth with a flood and He knew we would build a tower to achieve the glory of a god in heaven – and He knows every little thing you and I will do tomorrow.

When Jesus the Messiah walked on the earth it was the spiritual leaders of Israel who condemned Him as a blasphemer and had Him crucified – the men who were supposed to be teaching and preserving the words of God to His creation and upholding God’s law…the men who were supposed to be wise enough to recognize all the signs and fulfillment of prophecy for their promised Messiah. Think about why they did not recognize their Savior – what was blinding these men? Read through the gospels carefully and make a note every time you read it mentioned these men plotted against Him, or every time one of these men tried to rebuke Christ – and you might see why they simply did not want to see the fulfillment of God’s promise – a scenario much like the rich young man of high-class status who approached Jesus in Matthew 19 and asked Him what he needs to do to obtain eternal life. Jesus’ reply was, “if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” So the man said he’s kept all the commandments, what else does he lack? Jesus told him to go and sell all of his possessions, give the money to the poor and follow Him, then he would be complete. The young man of course left upset because he was not willing to make that sacrifice.

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14)

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was…..But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. (John 17)

Jesus Christ could not have said it any clearer when He said His kingdom is not of this world, so a Christian is not of the world, even as He is not of the world which means a Christian does not store up for him/herself treasures on earth where moths and rust can destroy and thieves can steal from – a Christian realizes the treasures of the earth are truly insignificant and are all subject to decay and destruction. Treasures in heaven, on the other hand, could make a Rothschild blush for an eternity.

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall. (Matthew 7)

In Luke 11 Jesus has more to say to some of Israel’s upper-class citizens:

Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places. Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it." One of the lawyers said to Him in reply, "Teacher, when You say this, You insult us too." But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them. So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.' Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering."

The key of knowledge…..by entering He means entering His kingdom. Christ makes it crystal clear that the path to eternal life is one that is not traveled often while the path to destruction is very broad as it is used by almost all of humanity. By this simple rule of thumb, as a Christian I faithfully depend on the simple logic that if everyone thinks it’s a good thing, it isn’t. If the whole country supports RFID chip implants in the body as the perfect solution for security and convenience in such an insecure (and inconvenient) world, then I know to flee from it – the last thing a Christian ever is in this world is safe, secure or comfortable – because this world hates us, just as the world hates Christ.

Some Christians born and raised in America might not agree with that last statement as many or most Christians in American have lived quite comfortably for some time, though I don't want to start off on that tangent...

It is no doubt easier in the flesh to deny Jesus is God, or to simply ignore Him either way, than it is to sacrifice ourselves for Him, just as He did for us – the Bible tells us to conform ourselves to the image of Christ – in a nutshell, throw away all self-serving agendas and walk in faith where the Lord leads you.

The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head. (Matthew 8)

For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?' For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (Matthew 6)

Biblical prophecy also tells us the entire world will one day be ruled by the anti-Christ - prophecy also teaches us much about how this future kingdom is built - in Daniel chapter 8 we're warned that this anti-Christ kingdom will achieve mankind's purpose for building the tower of Babel, just as God declared (God's word is truth) from the beginning: "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them."

The little horn kingdom

It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. (Daniel 8)

In a figurative sense, mankind has been re-building the tower of Babel all throughout history - this is the meaning of novus ordo seclorum - a new secular order - a new Babylon.

Danu Hale advised us to not dig too deeply into history as you're bound to get dirty from doing so....on the contrary, understanding history is the only way we can truly understand the world we currently live in - where it came from and how it became what it is today, which is why a man who chooses not to read and learn has no advantage over a man who can't....reading and learning shapes our own understanding, independent thinking and reasoning - all of these ultimately influence our ability to discern between the light and the darkness. Unfortunately the world today has become so watered down with "grey areas" as conformity, tolerance and "political correctness" take precedence over God's word...the result of a world population consistently (and purposely) bombarded with one issue after another - all of which are prime examples of the Hegelian dialectic at work - even in the most personal areas of our lives.

Christ's many warnings of deception all tell us the deception will be so powerful and overwhelming, that it will even deceive many who consider themselves to be Christian - indeed, at the beginning of Revelation Christ walks amongst His 7 churches and He finds that only 2 of them have not defiled themselves with wickedness - the other 5 He issues a strong warning of repentance towards, along with the promise that He will stamp out their lampstand if they fail to do so. The New Testament scriptures tell us there will be a great falling away from the faith in the latter days, that a great apostasy will corrupt the spirituality of mankind - even Christians. How do you think this apostasy will affect those 5 impure churches?

So how does freemasonry fit into all of this?

Albert Mackey called freemasonry a religion of pure theism, Frank Higgins goes a step further and declares freemasonry "the parent of all religion." J.S.M. Ward wrote, "I consider freemasonry is a significantly organized school of mysticism to be entitled to be called a religion." Ward explains, "each man can, by himself, work out his own conception of god and thereby achieve salvation." Ward's teachings imply there are various paths to salvation which all branch off from a common source (the light) and ultimately achieve the same goal in the end. The most important mason in American history, Albert Pike, wrote in Morals and Dogma, "Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion." In the same dogmatic text he tells us "Masonry is identical to the ancient mysteries" - a statement with enormous implications.

But the bottom line of all this reference to religious freemasonry is the simple fact that masonic brotherhood falls under the category of deism, a classification any Christian should recognize as anti-Christ.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God:every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. (1 John 4)

Now I understand not all masons reject the divinity of Christ, although freemasonry as a whole accepts the doctrines of virtually any religious faith - ALL OF WHICH are directly opposed to the true gospel of Christ. A Christian should know there are spiritual forces of good and evil working in the world today, and that the evil side is remarkably alluring and deceptive. I do not see how a Christian who loves the Lord with all of his heart could swear a blood oath to a brotherhood so saturated with demonic doctrine.

You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. (Matthew 5)

But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment. (James 5)

Of course in our own society today it's easy for us to compromise the meaning of this scripture for the sake of what we consider a justifiable cause, such as swearing an oath before giving testimony in court, before entering the military or a political office, joining a fraternity or secret society, ceremonial wedding vows, etc. Since we consider these oaths benign and even beneficial in many cases, does that negate God's law? "Anything beyond these is of evil" are some pretty harsh words - should we not take Him seriously? The debate over semantics in this case always reminds me of another classic example in Matthew 23:

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

Somehow the catholic church has compromised the entire meaning of Christ's instruction here, yet catholic worshippers remain willfully unaware of the heresy of the priesthood. So naturally I ask how it is possible for us to deviate from God's law while still upholding the mindset of faithful disciples....Christ said this isn't possible, that such things are evil - He didn't say they might be or may become evil, He said they are evil. The world will argue the aforementioned scenario is absolutely possible because God understands our nature and our cultural traditions...

"Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'" (Matthew 15)

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16)

As a Christian who loves the Lord, I wake up every morning to take up my cross and follow Christ. In doing so, I choose to deny myself the many delightful promises the world has to offer me. I've been told many times I'm wasting my potential to achieve successful positions in life as a computer technician or programmer, but my joyful answer to this self-serving view is that life is not at all my own to spend however I wish; it was bought for me through the blood of Christ on the cross. So I know I can trust in Him to lead me through the narrow gate to life; I wouldn't dare pursue the desires of my flesh in exchange for my soul. As I recall, it didn't work out so well in the end for Esau when he sold his birthright for a meal.

Some questions I have:

After Adam Weishaupt founded the the order of the Illuminati in May of 1776, one of the first orders of business was to permeate the Illuminati doctrine throughout the masonic lodges of Europe - why do you suppose that is?

After Weishaupt's death in 1830 the torch seems to have been passed to Albert Pike, who spells out the identical Luciferian objective in his own writings, so why is he optimistically regarded as America's most influential freemason? Why is Pike the only confederate general honored with a statue just a short walk from the Whitehouse? The man was admittedly evil!

What influence have masonic societies had on this country's foreign and domestic policies, military chain of command and our culture in general? Really look into these aspects and ask yourself what any of this has to do with the kingdom of heaven.

Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" (Matthew 4)

Understand the devil's promise to Christ in this scripture was not an empty promise - the enemy truly does have all the kingdoms of the world and all their glory to offer. No one can serve two masters. My master's kingdom is not of this world. If His kingdom were of this world, then I as His servant would be fighting so that it would not be handed over to the evil one.

What or whose purpose does a man serve by swearing an oath to a masonic brotherhood?

[SAWgunner] Once again we are dealing with Man's interpretation of God's word. We go right back around in the same circle. I interpreted almost every biblical passage differently than you did. The part that really threw me off of what you were trying to say was:

After Weishaupt's death in 1830 the torch seems to have been passed to Albert Pike, who spells out the identical Luciferian objective in his own writings, so why is he optimistically regarded as America's most influential freemason? Why is Pike the only confederate general honored with a statue just a short walk from the Whitehouse? The man was admittedly evil!

This statement really showed your true colors. But, I guess by the same token, you and I (as Christians) can be judged by the actions of Hitler which was a self proclaimed Christian (although of Jewish ancestry). Or how about David Koresch? You remind me a lot of him. Albert Pike is an infamous note in our history, just like the many infamous Christians that mar our history. SO by that token (Since you have judged other fellow Christians here), you won't mind if I group you into the same category as Koresch, would you? See where I am going with this? This is another instance of someone that knows little to nothing about a subject, but insists on using quotes by an infamous person related to the craft.

[james] I've judged no one here.....judgment comes from the Lord - His word teaches us to discern and to speak truth.....not to judge. all I have to do is observe pike's words and deeds to discern whether or not he is serving the Lord, just as I can do the same in Hitler's case - and just because Hitler presented himself as an upright Christian does not mean he was a Christian - does the bible not warn us of many wolves in sheep clothing, that the devil masquerades as an angel of light to deceive us, that many false Christs will and have come upon the earth to deceive and destroy....the bible is extremely clear these wolves will appear to be Christian, for how else could the enemy deceive the very elect as we're told in Matthew 24 - and what better way to destroy Christianity that to have wicked men disguised as holy men run Christianity through the mud, leading the world astray

[SAWgunner] Indeed the bible does warn us of that. Although you and I agree that Hitler was not Christian on the inside, nor was Koresch, they still both claimed Christianity. Albert Pike was pretty much the same thing. I personally believe that he was a Freemason by name only, much like Hitler and others are to Christianity. What we are trying to avoid here, and the point I am trying to get across, is that we cannot make the fatal error of judging a group by one person's actions, speeches and thoughts. Also writing a passage proclaiming Freemasonry as Anti-Christian is Judgmental. You are correct that ultimate judgment comes form the Lord, lesser judgment also comes from man, for we cannot deny man's sinfulness, greediness and the urge to be quick to judge other men.

[PHQ96] You've got to get pass this whole "Pike was the most influential Mason" thing. He WAS NOT the leader of ALL Masons. He was Scottish Rite. He DID NOT speak for Masons. Get that? Geeeez, I'm sick and tired of these people hanging on to something written 150 years ago and attempting to use that to prove, whatever, something that they have read by others. And of course, this is the crux of the matter. You yourself have made no attempt to investigate anything, You are just rehashing what other people have written, which is incorrect. You will not discover the true meaning of Masonry as you have been "brainwashed" by a very, very small handful of persons with an ax to grind. Now I state brainwashed because although they did not sit you down for weeks and break down your powers of individual thinking you are gullible enough to believe their drivel without doing any research on your own.

This thread will soon be in the debate forum, where I can see it is heading.

[SAWgunner] And I was trying to be nice about it. You made me cower in the corner!

[PHQ96]

What or whose purpose does a man serve by swearing an oath to a masonic brotherhood?

What purpose does it serve to have a witness in court swear to tell the truth, the...................?

What purpose does it serve to have an inductee in the military swear to uphold the laws of this country and it's flag?

What purpose does it serve to have the man elected President swear on a Bible to serve to the best of his ability, etc, etc.................?

Remember that oaths or pledges aren't "bad" things - they're simply promises - like the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, or oaths witnesses in court take to tell the truth (which is also given with their hand on the Bible). Many organizations ask new members to take an oath/obligation. The President of the United States even takes an oath (with his hand on the Bible) when he is installed into his office!

[james], remember that we all have heard this from Fundamental Christian Groups for years; we all know that the whole problem lies with the fact that masonry is not a "religion" in and of itself and does not espouse a specific religious doctrine. However, most of it's members are Christians. This is not at all unlike many many other excellent organizations - this doesn't make it a "bad" organization or conflict with your church in any way. As an example of this principle, the US Government has explicit rules and laws the guard it from being specifically Christian or even acknowledging it, but that doesn't mean persons shouldn't be Senators or even the President! Remember, it is not against the law in America for a Jewish person (Sen. Leiber) to run for President. Thank God for Freedom.

Also remember that this forum is about replying to the "anti-masons" on myspace, not for repeating the same tired old arguments against Freemasonry

[justin] he who serves, will always be a servant, I prefer to walk beside, through, over and around my god, and not behind him cowering in fear.

sorry, got me riled.

[Danu_Hale] [james], here once again, you exemplify the one person who claims to know the "only" path to God. you are already narrow-minded, thus, are judging right there.

also, the Lord judges, not you. scripture states truth, your interpretation is brought about by other "narrow" minds.

He also states in scripture there is no other god below me, above me, or next to me.

that, to me is interpreted as "I am but ALL Gods".

digging too deep has got you buried, my friend, for you are buried in your personal viewpoints, not of the greater picture.

this statement has shown just what it was meant to show, and has proven itself.

Panta Rhei, Ouden Menei

For everything flows, nothing is stagnant.

lets hope one day, your mind can flow with history, and not be deluded by personal viewpoint that consistently stays narrowed.

[james] I merely stated it as fact: Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father - Christ is our redemption and salvation - there is no other way. You can despise or deny that fact all you want but God's word has spoken - do you claim to know another way......in the gospel according to Danu Hale is Jesus Christ a liar?

Not to be argumentative, Danu Hale, but who's really judging who here? I've made no assumptions about you, I've only presented historical fact and the word of God. And according to God's word, debate over interpretation is foolishness - His word is unquestionably clear to all who seek it truth with all their mind, heart and soul. And for what it's worth, this mind of mine may not be as "narrow " and "deluded" as you have accused it to be - Christianity is not the only avenue I've ever explored; I was an occultist/satanist for several years before I realized the truth of God's perfect love.....had that not been the case I imagine I'd have very little occult insight at all.

In all honesty, I was a satanist when I first learned about masonic societies - Aleister Crowley and Manly P. Hall used to be idols of mine and I found freemasonry intriguing.....I was never "turned off" to the idea of even becoming a mason until a series of events unfolded during my duty in the US Army, which taught me the power/influence of the brotherhood superceded the authority of my chain of command....but all of this is beside the point.

I've been hoping someone will comment on deism.

[justin] ohhhhh I see you want someone to comment on freemasonry as a religion pertaining to the deist recognition of TGAOTU. well its not a religion. so 'nuff said

[PHQ96]

....."Aleister Crowley and Manly P. Hall used to be idols of mine"

Neither one of those represents Masonry; actually most Masons think Crowley was an idiot.

...."I've been hoping someone will comment on deism."

What about it. Jefferson was a Desist as were many of the Founding Fathers; so what?

Again you presenting your religion as the "right" one. Do you not know that Religion is not discussed in a Masonic Lodge, and for a very good reason. Masonry is not a religion. I am guessing that Masonry would be just peachy keen with you if it were solely based on being Christian. You still do not grasp the very simple precept; Masonry is not a religion.

[Danu_Hale] well, Justin brings up a very valid point. secondly, you can be as studied in many paths and religions as you wish, my friend, but none of them well allow you to understand freemasonry, because it *is not* a religion.

do you go to work? I assume you do. well, and at your work, different people believe in different things, which I would guess, if you didn't work for a ministry.

and thirdly, masonry is kinda like that. 'cept its a fraternity. there is no secret worship going on behind the scenes, unless of course, different masons who worship different gods, go home to those practices.

what I am trying to say, and almost any mason in here would be, is that - lol - how do I put it, without just saying it isn't a religion? there really is no other way, you would need to be a bit more studied in it, to understand that.

once you get to the point of understanding it isn't some religion, you maybe will be able to understand other things about it. but if you cannot get past that point, then there really is no further development or understanding you could possibly come to, about freemasonry.

trying without that understanding.....

I'm not trying to assault you, your god, or your beliefs. but understanding different religions is just that. understanding masonry is about understanding brotherhood, and sisterhood, and that's just really all there is to it.

There is no hidden agenda, there is no antichrist in the midst's, there is no anti Christian philosophy, and there really is no understanding masonry, if one holds on to negative connotations about it being a religion. that is like calling an apple a grape.

I hope I helped a bit?

[ALPHA] I for one can not see how anyone could interpret Freemasonry as a religion. Actually, what I have always expected to see posted regarding this subject would be someone accusing Freemasonry of being a recruiting ground for Christianity. The Christian bible is the focal point of the lodge, degrees based on passages from the bible, christian prayers in every lodge meeting. Sorry my friend, I have been thru the degrees of the blue lodge, I have been thru the degrees of the York Rite (you must be a Christian to be in the York by the way) I have been thru the OES (entirely based on the old testament) and finally I have been thru the Scottish Rite. Freemasonry is not Anti-Christian. It is actually the complete opposite. Of course, if you see it as anti-Christian, then for you it is and most definitely not for you.

I believe that 99% of what you are stating actually is pointed toward the Scottish Rite. All anti Masons use the SR as their fodder against Masonry and in my opinion is because it touches on many different religions from the history of man kind. Hard line Christians seem to detest even the mention of other religions, therefore the SR is an easy target.

Everyone must find his or her own path toward God. Yours clearly does not involve Freemasonry and I can understand and respect that. Speaking entirely from my own experiences, Freemasonry has actually steered me back to church. Not because of any secret oaths or rituals, but because of the men that are involved in this fraternity. So many of them are devout Christians and are always eager to invite anyone to their church.

It's not Freemasonry that has religion, it's the members that are drawn to it that does.

[justin] damn, and I thought addison was the eloquent one......

[Michael] Naaw, Alpha can get get to the point in an eloquent way, as Addison can, and still be long winded . At least they both can "actually" have something to say without looking like a television constantly switching channels through non interesting and non pertaining programs.

[james] the term religion describes any man-made substitute for God's law. Just because someone's religion is BASED on or somehow RELATED TO the bible does not make it truth - God's word is truth - religion is the fallacious substitute, the amended version(s) designed to suit man's will instead of God's.

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1)

[PHQ96] [james], I am I'm sure everyone here respects your faith and belief. However, you will not be able to convince anyone here that Masonry is.......here enter your chosen anti-masonic words. No matter what you say.

Now, would anyone here be able to convince you that you have been misled regarding Masonry?

What are your sources for your anti-masonic feelings? Have you been to or read a anti-masonic web site, or book.

That tells a lot about where you are coming from. There is a very small handful of persons/groups that are anti-masonic but their mistruths have been spread around by another small handful of others who have been duped. On the other hand there are thousands of volumes written through the centuries about Masonry by many great and learned men and women stating the obvious fact; that Masonry is compatible with Christianity and other religions.

[CWarfield] [james] I'm just curious...are you going to keep coming on here regurgitating other peoples views and opinions or are you going to be original anytime soon? all I see you doing is repeating things that other people have come up with which in turn means you don't truly understand either side of the argument you are fighting. and on top of that no one on this board will be swayed by your posts so is it even worth the waste of breath? just let us be and we will let you be.

[Danu_Hale] The reasoning for his approach is simply done by a nice, long winded approach at what all Anti's stand by. They all have the same basings:

History, of which Masonic contribution is far more greater in positive then negative, but they seek negative to feed a flame that they themselves have kindled out of fear of misunderstanding

Scripture, which, I highly respect, but...at the same time, scripture being spoken of is personal interpretation of their anti viewpoint. I could have a specific anti anything viewpoint, and I'm sure I could back it up with something in the bible........but, once more, this is speculative approach, and not a proper evaluation of something not understood. seek out what you don't understand at its roots. one could not dig up a tree, and understand its leaves, and process of growth. same thing.

anti view point based on conspiracy theory. this has nothing more to be said on its points.

I would be a lot more respectful if he was asking instead of asking and pointing out error, in his viewpoint. that is not how one learns anything, except how to be more anti. and I wonder why many lodges do not approve of open discussion, especially when there is always going to be something "anti" to what is said.

its like teaching algebra to a child in kindergarten. wont work.

1+1 has to always come first. and when in their minds one + one = a million, yea. it wont ever be addressed or understood. they'll never understand e=mc squared. lol. no pun intended on that squared" part.

anyhow.

I do not feel applicable enough to address the biblical side o this discussion, as I am not Christian....but that doesn't make me anti Christian. neither would being masonic.

the approach taken by masonry with other deity, is more of a respect to another's beliefs, if that is what you are seeking? but that's pretty much the extent of it.

[Andy] First of all welcome to the forum [james].

If you are saying that you are not anii-masonic then why have you posted "your" ideas in the anti-masonic area?

As an academic I have learnt that texts can be interpreted in many differed ways. One’s own beliefs, education, experiences, up-bringing, and family can influence interpretation. ‘We only see what we want to see’. I am a confirmed Roman Catholic and two of my family have become Priests (evil in you interpretation), I have had Catholic schooling. I read the passages you have quoted and interpret them differently to you. My question is who is right? Me or you? My feeling is neither of us. The words have different meanings for me than they will for you and I will interpret them differently due to the factors above.

I am a mason and proud of it. I have been through many degrees (not as many as some brothers on the board) and as I am UGLE (UK masonry) the process has been slower than my US brothers but I cannot see any conflict between my religion and my masonry.

[amillerCA128]

First of all welcome to the forum [james].

If you are saying that you are not anit-masonic then why have you posted "your" ideas in the anit-masonic area?

I beleive i can answer this best. As this topic was origanally titled Anti Masons on Myspace concerning anti-Mason propaganda and persons I had encountered on myspace.com http://www.myspace.com/. Well the individual posting as [james] is also the person the original post mentioned.

he has also been transcribing posts from this site to a blog on his site at http://truthinprophecy.com/blog whether this was with the knowledge and/or consent of any of you I do not know, I did neither and only just now found out while searching for information to compose this reply.

[an1] You know, the focus here should be on blood oaths and the hate that the Lord has for swearing to anything or anyone else but Him. If you claim to be Christian and swear allegiance to an organization regardless of what they claim to be, you're swearing allegiance to something other than the Lord. Whom do you serve, the lodge, or the Lord?

[Michael] Banned for misuse of members statements for personal gain outside the board at least.

[Mike G]

I for one can not see how anyone could interpret Freemasonry as a religion.

Great Post Brother Mark....But it is good to have anti on here. That's why you put the section here in the first place.

[CWarfield] By joining the Masons we do not swear an allegiance to any specific person or group...we swear to protect the secrets of our fraternity so falsemasons cannot penetrate our fraternity, therefore we are not vialating our Christian beliefs nor faulting/wronging god in any way. We also do not serve a lodge, we meet in a lodge. I suggest that you do a lil more research into who we are, what we do, and what we are about before you start making assumptions about us and passing judgement. oh and as the bible also says, let he who is free of sin cast the first stone...from what it seems you are a sinner just as all of us are and yet you are casting a stone. but you probably dont care anyways so keep casting stones...

[Mike G] Hey [james], I just defended your right to post here to a respectable brother and member of this board, then I noticed you and an1 are the same person. Come on man, surely you can get your point across without making clones of yourself.

Well I'll let the mods deal with you without my interference.

[CWarfield] he made two names we better watch out coz he might make a whole army of [james].

[justin] Ha! 17th crusade......

[Michael] I hear a Pink Floyd song playing ...Remember "The Wall" Video?

[ALPHA]

Just because someones religion is BASED on or somehow RELATED TO the bible does not make it truth

You see here is the extreme flaw and the very foundation of your argument. Freemasonry is not a religion. No matter how you slice it, no matter how many bible quotes you post it still doesn't make it true. Here's a brief comparison to explain this.

Masonic lodge- has a bible in it
My house - Has a bible in it
Masonic lodge - Praying is a common practice
My house - ditto
Masonic lodge - Photographs of Jesus are displayed (maybe not all, but most I have seen)
My house - once again, ditto
Masonic lodge - There is a requirement of a belief in a supreme being to be a member
My house - If you live here...Same thing

So by your rational, my house is a religion on it's own....

Try and go past your prejudices and actually investigate those you damn. I know it's a long way down from that pedestal you are on, but if you're careful, you can make it down on the level.

[CWarfield] very well put Alpha.

[Danu_Hale] making multi screen names..? very philosophical. if he were not posting uor info for the world to see, and trying to make improper light for purposes purely predjusdice, i would vote vote him to stay on his philosophical appraoch alone to his screennames.

[Michael] Multiple personality. Kinda bad when you have to get another screen name in to agree with you.

[Danu_Hale] ui d have a very very valid point wiht this whole amking another screenname to agree with you. LOLOLOL.

[PHQ96] I actually feel sorry/sympathy for people with this attitude. By reading their posts it is obvious that, as others have mentioned, they are simply repeating what they read elswhere, without doing any investigatin on their own; especially the remarks regarding Pike. He is continualy mentioned, many times as one of the "highest level Masons", or "a leading authority", etc.

If he has no desire to join a Masonic Lodge, then fine. Leave it at that.

This is like having two groups of people, one who loves Pepsi and the other Coca-Cola and both are attempting to convince each other how wrong their choice is. Or perhaps Ford and Chevy lovers; neither one will ever change sides even though many of us on the "correct side" have done everything in our power to show the "wrong" ones how their choice is incorrect.

[Danu_Hale] totally off subject, but i ahve a clsoe friend who loves chevy to death, and im a Ford lover. we grw up together, its like light and dark...

however, if this person has a sence of feeling enlightened, and a sence of balance from this point of view, then they in their mind and soul, are indeed ona correct path of light, for themselves.

the only error when on a certain path is to show yours is the only right path, and try to convince others. this is what has caused wars over religion, or thoughts in the past. such things are incorrect and need to be overlooked. i prefer not to argue wiht antis, even though at times, it creates a discussion of light, becaus both sides tend to bring up valid poitns ehre and there....

this si also taken on a nuetral stance, for i think all opaths are indeed correct untill they cause some harm to others, which is why i do not respect this person.

i dont really feel sorry for people who think they have the onyl right and true path, because it isnt for everyone, they fail to see the top of the mountai ad the other paths taking them there, its why i let everyoen wlak the walk they are on, wihtout interuption, untill theyt ryt o tell em a path i am looking into , or on, is negative, incorrect, and im going to suffer for it. personally, if anyone feels a certain balance with their ways, an they gan spiritual insight and growth while ont heir wlak, then i see nothing in error wiht it, as long as it is not harming others.....

however, on could philosophically debate that this is my stance and my wlak, and in a way could almost parallel a wlak otherwise, thinking my way is the right way. so i jsut try not to argue or define this to people who wouldnt respect/ understand such..........

[PHQ96] Exactly! Those who like the "correct" or "right" car know in their minds that it is so, and nothing will change that. Even a person showing them the fallacy of their argument will be met with "well, that doesn't apply here, this is different, you don't really know the whole story. Those higher up just want you to think that you auto brand is correct, but the truth is known to our special group"

[Reed the Mason] That was so long I fell asleep.

[CWarfield] this poor guy just isnt making any friends

[Andy] I don't think he came here to make friends.

[Michael]

I don't think he came here to make friends.

Well, if this was not a family site, I would imply the only friend he has.....

That was so long I fell asleep.

No kidding Reed, how many times have we heard all that without any substance.

[Andy] Yes well.....! I think that one is best left un-said!

[an1]

Hey [james], I just defended your right to post here to a respectable brother and member of this board, then I noticed you and an1 are the same person. Come on man, surely you can get your point across without making clones of yourself.

Actually, I am not [james], though I do know him, and we are both of the same mind concerning freemasonry. As to casting stones, I am not. What am trying to demonstrate is that belonging to a lodge and faith in Christ are separate and cannot co-exist. You either follow the teachings of the lodge or you follow the teachings of Christ and are saved by grace and mercy. If you try to mix the two you come out with falsehood and lies. For example if you inject 1% lie into 100% truth, you still have a lie. Like changing a word here or there, it changes the meaning and context of the information to be conveyed.

[SAWgunner]

What am trying to demonstrate is that belonging to a lodge and faith in Christ are separate and cannot co-exist

Why?

faith - pronunciation- (fth) n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

5. A set of principles or beliefs.

I do not believe that our craft is getting me into heaven. I do not pray to our craft. Exactly why can I not have faith in Christ as my saviour becuase I am a member of a fraternity? What you fail to understand is that the teachings of the lodge walk hand-in-hand with the teachings of Christ. You are expected to be a good, kind, helpful person. When fireman take an oath and swear to help out humans in need by saving them from burning to death, are they condemning themselves to burning for eternity? I don't understand how the teaching and following of acts that are good are against Christ. I pledge allegiance to the flag, I have faith in my family, I am loyal to my country, which, apparently, according to you is sending me to spend eternity without the presence of God. The only falsehood and lies that have been spread are by th pastor that is quick to judge, and even quicker to pass the offering plate to pay for the Denali sitting behind the house that the church provides for him. I have no doubt that he is no closer to God than I, and that I can teach you the same things he can. No man has God's email address, or a direct line to him. Stating that they are closer to God than any other man, and they are the way into God's home is blasphemy.

[an1] If the lodge and Christianity were one, you would not need the lodge. Christ did not speak of the lodge, nor is it found anywhere else in the New Testament. Last I checked, the lodge accepted people of any faith as long as they had one, if I'm wrong correct me, but that is what I read on a local chapter website not long ago. If the lodge accepts other faiths, then it cannot be one with Christ. For all faiths are not a road to heaven. Christ said No one comes to the Father except by me. You are right, the craft does not get you into heaven, nor does any other man, or offering in the plate or good works, but faith alone in Christ. Prayer however is a direct line to the Lord.

[PHQ96] You have either been mis-informed or just ignoring the truth for the sake of your own personal belief or conviction. You are 100% incorrect. I understand the problem that some Fundemental Christians have with Masonry, as you stated; Masonry accepts men of many different faiths but as it has been explained ad-infintum, Masonry IS NOT A RELIGION. Your argument has no substance. The Untited States Senate accepts men of many different faiths and Senators take "Oaths". Should all good Christians renounce them as being imcompatiable with Christianity?

Men who had no problem with being a Christian and a Mason. And please don't respnd with the tired old {anti-masonic battle cry} "Well, these men really didn't know all the terrible things about Masonry; only the "higher ups" do. Some of these men were at the highest level of Scottish Rite and York Rite. Actually if any person were gullible enough to actually believe that statement, there would be only 5 men left who knew the "real truth" by the time you exclude everyone else. And how did all these anti-masonic authors and groups find out this "hidden truth"? By reading each others books, I guess.

Rev. Charles T. Aikens, who served as President of the Lutheran Synod of Eastern Pennsylvania.

Bishop James Freeman, the Episcopal Bishop of Washington, D.C., who first conceived and began the construction of the National Cathedral.

Bishop William F. Anderson, one of the most important leaders of the United Methodist Church.

William R. White, , who served as President of Baylor, and Secretary of the Sunday School Board, Southern Baptist Convention.

Rev. Lansing Burrows, Civil War hero and Secretary of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Rev. James C. Baker, who created the Wesley Foundation.

Rev. Hugh I. Evans, who served as national head of a Presbyterian Church.

Carl J. Sanders, 33°, Bishop of the United Methodist Church and holder of the highest honor, the Grand Cross, conferred by the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction, USA, writes: "My Masonic activities have never interfered with my loyalty to and my love for my Church. Quite to the contrary, my loyalty to my Church has been strengthened by my Masonic ties. Good Masons are good Churchmen."

Dr. James P. Wesberry, 32°, KCCH, former Executive Director and Editor of the Baptist publication Sunday, writes: "It is no secret that Masons love and revere the Bible, nor is it a secret that Masonry helped to preserve it in the darkest age of the church when infidelity sought to destroy it. The Bible meets Masons with its sacred message at every step of progress in its various degrees."

The Rev. Louis R. Gant, 33°, Mason and District Superintendent of the Methodist Church, writes: "Let no one say you cannot be a Christian and a Mason at the same time. I know too many who are both, and proud to be both."

Dr. Norman Vincent Peale, the creator of Guideposts magazine, one of the most popular and influential Christian magazines in print today, and author of "The Power of Positive Thinking", a national classic

Rev. Jesse Jackson, founder of the Rainbow Coalition and one of the most influential American clerics alive today

And one who is not a Christian

Rabbi Seymour Atlas, 33°, and holder of some the highest Masonic honors, writes of what he finds in Masonry:

"I was brought up in a religious home, a son of a Rabbi with seven generations of Rabbis preceding me.... I am proud to be a Mason who believes in the dignity of God's children and opposes hatred and bigotry, and stands for truth, justice, kindness, integrity, and righteousness for all."

[an1] It doesn't matter to me if Masonry is a religion or not. Answer me this though, does the lodge have certain rules and regulations that must be adhered to as a member? I'm sure the answer is yes. If this is true, surely some, most or all of these rules and regulations will conflict with Christian doctrine as found in scripture. Search the scriptures for yourself, seeking truth and leave your agenda behind. One example is that the lodge is accepting of all faiths. Christ says No one comes to the Father except by me. It really doesn't matter to me if a religious leader is a mason or not, The Lord is no respecter of persons.

[justin] actually the code that masons live by reinforces the values in which not only christians should live by, but all mankind. do you segregate yourself from humanity? do you put yourself above jews, muslims, hindi, pagan, and any other religion that is not christian? are you god? and above all these questions, if you believe in scripture and are above reproach, then does it not say "worship me above all idols"? why do all hardcore bible thumping christians such as yourself hide behind bible and IDOLS OF CHRIST?

[Mike G] Ok, first of all. It is very unnecessary to quote the WHOLE POST of the person above you, if that is the post you are responding to. Second. An1, if you and [james] are not the same individual then you must share the same computer. Third.

Christ did not speak of the lodge, nor is it found anywhere else in the New Testament

That should go for the military, the boy scouts, football games, baseball games, both houses of Congress, t-ball practice, work, AA meetings, so according to that logic, anytime a group gets together and it's not church, then it has to be bad??

[Michael] Maybe we should make out a graphic organizer of a timeline for him

[PHQ96] Most of what I attempted to convey to you went right by you, or again, it matters not when fact, logic and common sense are presented. Those Christian, hello Christian=Christ, leaders I mentioned do not have any problem reconciling their lodge and their faith. Perhaps you should go tell Norman Vincent Peale that he is not really a good Christian because he is a Mason.

NOTHING conflicts with a Masons faith, but re-enforces it. And no, Masons do not accept all faiths. This has been stated to you already. Masonry is not a "religion" in and of itself and does not espouse a specific religious doctrine or a plan of salvation, two important tenets of any religion. This is not at all unlike many many other excellent organizations - this doesn't make it a "bad" organization or conflict with your church in any way. As an example of this principle, the US Government has explicit rules and laws that guard it from being specifically Christian or even acknowledging it, but that doesn't mean persons shouldn't be Senators or even the President!

If you personly feel that being a Mason would interfer with your faith, fine. Don't join. End of story. Facts, logic and common sense notwithstanding. Much as certain styles of music may not be enjoyable to you, great, don't listen and don't buy. But to state to others that you know the "right" music and theirs is..........pick your choice here.......wrong.......evil......sucks...........no good.........abomidable...........incoherent...........lacking any musicial taste........without merit........etc. etc. flys in the face of facts, logic and common sense.

If every Masonic Lodge in the world kicked out everyone that was not Christian and then declared that they are a religion, a Christian one, would seem to be what you would deem making them acceptable. You see, you want them to be a religion and they are not.

[justin]

Answer me this though, does the lodge have certain rules and regulations that must be adhered to as a member? I'm sure the answer is yes. If this is true, surely some, most or all of these rules and regulations will conflict with Christian doctrine as found in scripture.

Govt. has rules. do any of them conflict with your scripture? if so please vacate the premesis....not willing to do that? comfy huh? the military has rules and oaths to abide by... still comfy? good im glad You must be from westbrook baptist.....i hope they get deported to

Search the scriptures for yourself, seeking truth and leave your agenda behind.

The only agenda here is you say that your way is THE way, or whatever you are. because your certainly not a christian. a true christian would have an ounce of humility and NOT stand on soapboxes. but then again christianity is the only faith in the world with missionaries whos job it is to go around tell people how wrong/evil they are.....pfft...

One example is that the lodge is accepting of all faiths. Christ says No one comes to the Father except by me.

Then spiritually that would make christ a bigot would it not? How could you promote that?

The Lord is no respecter of persons.

what?!? what kind of nut-ball are you? no respect huh, then why would anyone devote themselves to that.... that has to be a typo on your part.......

[an1] Forgive my forum etiqette, I'm not usually on these until recently. As far as the IP adress, [james] and I work for the same company and I'm sure he posts at work as well as I. Hope that clears that up.

[PHQ96] In any Masonic lodge, as well as any of the other different bodies that are concordant or appendant, with the exception of the Knights Templar, religion (which one is best, "true", the only way, etc.) is not discussed. Not only is it not discussed, it is not allowed to be. It is left to the individual to attened and worship where they please.

Because Jewish and other faiths that express a belief in ONE Supreme Being are welcomed into Masonry's families some fundimental Christian groups attack Freemasonry. A hypthetical situation; you are a Mason, Job's Daughter, Eastern Star, Shriner, etc. and express displeasure that prayers are not addressed in the name of Jesus Christ and go on about accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour, etc. during meetings, dinners, events, etc. You would first be politly reminded that a particular demonination of religion is not to be discussed or debated amongst members. The same would apply if you were a member of a school board, chamber of commerce, your local realty board, young businessmen of America, plumbers union, homeowners association, etc. It simply is not the place to prostilyze or start a debate about religion.

You are welcome to express anti-masonic views here on this board but realize that if you leave out your particular brand of Christianity there is nothing for you to bring up against Masonry. And leave it out you should, as this is not a forum for attempting to convert faiths.

[an1] This is a great example of the division of Christianity vs Freemasonry. Freemasonry says you shall keep quiet about your faith. Christ says go out and preach unto the uttermost parts of the world. How can a Christian reconcile his faith with this? I have heard it here that lodge teachings supplement a faith, but what right does the creation have to add to what the Creator has said. At the end of the book of Revelation it says (and I'm paraphrasing, go look it up for yourself)that if anyone adds to or takes away from these words, well things would not go well for you. This should be perfectly clear for a freemason to leave the craft and repent.

[justin] that "particular denomination of religion" is all religions... your god (neo-judaic with the inclusion of a human) is the same as my god (pantheism/nature)is the same as phq's goddess (is the same as allah is the same as.... thats the point. leaving the politics of a SPECIFIC religion at the door because in all actuality you or i or any of us when it comes down to the bare bones of FAITH are no different than anyone else. we could draw you a diagram if you would like.

[PHQ96] I understand where an1 and [james] are coming from but I regret that neither of them understands a basic precept about Masonry, and AMERICA. FREEDOM OF RELIGION . Their steadfastness to their faith is commendable, and as I stated, for them, Masonry is not the franternity to join. But as I also stated, this is not the place to preach that one religion is "the only one". an1 misses the whole concept; fine, you are not tolerant of others. Masonry, on the other hand, is proud that they are. There is nothing to "repent". Freemasonry does not say keep quiet about your faith; it does ask that you have one, and believe in One God. Freemasonry does say that there shall be no discord within the lodge, as Job's Daughters states that discord within the Bethel is to be avoided. Listen, that means not attempting to tell everyone that they are sinners and need to repent because they are not Christian.

As they should be aware, any prayer to a false god goes nowhere., so if they actually think that Masons are praying to a false god, well hey, no problem. A Christian praying in a lodge knows where his prayer is going and he respects others praying as well.

I'm proud that I can stand next to a Jewish girl, a Christian or even a Muslim girl, in harmony, and call them sister.

Well, at least no wars have ever been started over religion.

[Flanagin 375] I'm Catholic...Does that mean I can't be a Mason? Oh wait, my Great-Grandfather (Mason) was Protestant, and my Grandfather (32 degree Scottish Rite) was Protestant as well....Please An1, is it ok if I keep being a Mason if I'm Catholic???? You seem to know sooooo much please guide me. And yes, I do attend mass every Sunday. I have a B.A. in History from Niagara University, a Vincentian school.

[Addison II]

This is a great example of the division of Christianity vs Freemasonry. Freemasonry says you shall keep quiet about your faith. Christ says go out and preach unto the uttermost parts of the world. How can a Christian reconcile his faith with this? I have heard it here that lodge teachings supplement a faith, but what right does the creation have to add to what the Creator has said. At the end of the book of Revelation it says (and I'm paraphrasing, go look it up for yourself)that if anyone adds to or takes away from these words, well things would not go well for you. This should be perfectly clear for a freemason to leave the craft and repent.

The law of the land says it is not ok to pray in school. Many workplaces have a rule against proselytizing. Does this mean that since we obey this rule, we have abandoned our faith? The fact of the matter is that the Bible states there is a time for everything. The lodge simply isn't one of those places. We may choose at our discretion to discuss our faith with another Brother and he is free to do the same. However many times the discussion of religion and politics can bring disharmony with it. So to keep the peace and harmony within the lodge, the discussion of faith and politics is not a topic unless, one is specifically asked a personal question or wishes to share that info. Even then it is still optional upon the listener to respond.

Lodge teachings do not add to faith but reinforce the lessons taught and learned by faith. However, so do many other things. The Church itself reinforces faith. Now you may say how so?. Well faith is the expectation of things to occur even though not yet seen. So theoretically faith should be able to stand on its own(which it does) however the church is the place where faith is reinforced and strengthened along with personal study.

You seem to be judging us based on stereotypes and or untrue rumors repeated by countless others. I encourage you(if you haven't) to check out Freemasonry for yourself. Then if you still wish to object at least your reasons will be of a personal nature rather not just stating what others have stated without researching and coming to a personal conclusion.

[an1] I have found that it is always appropriate to discuss any number of subjects at any given time when the topic is brought up. I have had no regard for the setting. I'm sure one day, I will have been found "guilty" of said offenses by society. But I will have no guilt in my heart for sharing the Truth. Truth is always appropriate no matter what disharmony is instilled. If I am narrowminded and a bigot in your eyes, then so be it. The Truth will stand as my witness on Judgement day. I have only been trying to warn people here of the lie that Masonry is. It is not a religion, yet it uses religion as a tool to further its own agenda. Give me a break. You are twisting the very words found in the Holy Bible when you use it in your ceremonies. I am neither judge nor jury, but am only here to warn anyone who will hear. If you have any doubt, read the Holy Scriptures for yourself, the words are plain.

[Rev. Jason C. Black] I am a Baptist Pastor and I am very upset at all of the Masonic Judgment. Most of the folks that judge us don't even know anything about the Masons. Most are just jumping to conclusions about what they have heard someone else say. I see nothing wrong in the Masonic way of life that conflicts with the Bible or any religion, except maybe athiesm Anyway, I only belong to the Blue Lodge and Scottish Rite. Can't speak for the rest of the branches of Masonry.

[CWarfield] Bah...why let it get your blood pumping. its not really worth letting it get to that point over some people who know nothing but act like they know everything. i just read away and laugh. to me its more amusing than threatening or upsetting.

[Rev. Jason C. Black] because it you were ever a preacher and had so many folks telling you that you belong to a DEVILS CULT, you would get offensive as well. let's join hands to put down these big mouth liars. ha ha ha. just teasing!

[CWarfield] Thats true but that would put you in a losing situation as far as convincing them otherwise. Just ignore it. I had a college professor like that once. We were good friends and he spoke openly towards me and we used to have many good conversations but when i brought up Freemasonry his immediate reaction was that we were an evil organization. he never sid we were satanic though, just evil. I tried to convince him otherwise but he wouldnt listen so i just ignored his naiveness and avoided that topic. Made things alot easier coz if i chose the other path we would have been on a neverending heated debate.

[Rev. Jason C. Black] I think that a lot of people are closed minded. They have their minds made up about Masonry before someone even tries to explain what a great organization they are! Thanks for your input!

[james] This discussion is becoming exhausting......the masons maintain their circular logic responses while the "antis" merely regurgitate old preconceived notions......a mason argues the teachings of the lodge may parallel the teachings of Christ, the anti counters with the fact that the lodge may accept members of any religious faith - then the mason will try to squash the entire debate by declaring freemasonry is not at all a religion. As I've said before, God's word does not succumb to any religious faith, nor has God's word encouraged any religious faith. God is the beginning and the end - He is the author of life - without His grace we are dust blowing in the wind! God has provided us with His prophetic word, the only absolute truth we have as human beings in this world. God's word is the truth, friends - what He says IS - His will be done. All religion is man-made - and according to God's word any man who walks the path of world religion will be judged - any man who understands and surrenders to the truth of God's word and the truth of Christ's sacrifice will enter through the narrow gate to life.

All of these circular logic responses have been used to avoid the sore thumb of the occult in freemasonry - gnosticism. I challenge any mason to explain how the oaths, secrecy and degrees are not defining characteristics of a gnostic hierarchy. I don't expect a meaningful response to this because providing one would probably require the revelation of masonic secrets which are to be kept from all non-masons.

Christ said whenever two or more gather in His name, He will be in their midst - this is the promise of fellowship He has provided us. A congregation of individuals, as members of any variety of worldly religions, gathered in the name of the architect of the universe is not the same fellowship. It is in fact the exact opposite. Just because Christ's name and perhaps some of his teachings are incorporated into the lodge does not make the lodge Christian. Just because the catholic church or protestant denominations refer to Christ and the holy trinity does not mean they are Christian. Just because Pat Robertson preaches in the name of Christ does not mean he is Christian - the bible repeatedly warns us of false Christs and false prophets - in fact the deception of the end times will deceive Christ's elect - how could this be possible if it didn't actually appear to be Christian? I'm reminded of the harlot in Revelation 17 who is clothed in purple and scarlet and adorned with many beautiful stones and pearls with a precious gold cup in her hand - the outward appearance is beautiful and very compelling - inwardly it is full of abominations and unclean and immoral things.

Here is truth:

Freemasonry is a gnostic fraternity with great influence all over the world

Masonic symbolism is identical to occult symbolism

Masons are sworn to secrecy through blood oaths not to reveal their craft to any non-mason

Has it occurred to anyone that all of these qualities easily compel the flesh? There is nothing Christian about temptation, nor is there anything Christian within ecumenical fellowship, nor is there anything Christian about gnosticism or any kind of esoteric symbolism.

[CWarfield] all i can say to you in response is DONT KNOCK IT 'TIL YOU TRY IT!!!! who knows maybe you'll be a Worshipful Master in the future! hahahha

[Mike G] I see my posts about him and AN1 were conveniently left out of his blog. I guess we should be flattered that someone out there sees this site as a threat.....we must be doing something right.

[CWarfield] shhh...we're getting too close to revealing our plans of world domination...we must not elighten the cowans as to our plans for the future!!!

[Mike G]

This discussion is becoming exhausting......

Nobody is forcing you to continue discussing.

Masons are sworn to secrecy through blood oaths

I took an oath, don't remember any blood involved. Heh, you know more than a mason. Congratulations.

[PHQ96]

a mason argues the teachings of the lodge may parallel the teachings of Christ

NEVER has been stated. However, again you miss the point.

You argue that a congregation of individuals, as members of any variety of worldly religions, gathered in the name of the architect of the universe is not the same fellowship as meeting worshiping Christ. Duh, that is what everyone has been trying to get across to you. If Masons met and worshiped Christ they would be a religion, a particular one that agrees with you, so then everything is OK, with you. As several have told you, Masons worship ONE GOD. GOD, get it. Masonry does not teach salvation, but is made up solely of men who do profess a belief in GOD, a Supreme Being, again, GOD.

Masonry is not for you. Wonderful. No one thinks any less of you because you chose not to join. Many think less of you because you still do not get it. Christ is for you, again wonderful. Leave it at that. Christ is not for Jewish or other brethern in a Masonic Lodge. Leave out the preaching. That is for church. Leave out the prostelyzing, that is not for here, or in a Masonic Building, no matter which organization is meeting there.

When Clergymen meet in my town for their monthly breakfast (which I'm sure they do in towns across America) NO ONE attempts to convince others that they are not in the "right" religion. They meet, discuss events, PRAY , hello, even with Rabbis there, and enjoy fellowship. They enjoy fellowship with others of a like mind, all believe in a Supreme Being, a GOD. By your reasoning, an Episcopal Bishop, a Catholic Priest, A Jewish Rabbi and a Muslim Iman standing together, saying Doxolgy, and sitting down to eat breakfast are terrible people, who just don't understand why it is wrong for them to meet together, and PRAY.

Your arguments are becoming exausting, because they all end up with Masonry doesn't worship Christ. You are not debating Masonry, you are debating religion, and which one is "right", "best", whatever. Get over it. If you have something that you think is wrong with Masonry, OTHER than not being a religion, state it.

When Mormons, Jehova Witness, etc., etc. appear at my door I give them respect. I simply say "no thanks, I'm not interested". I respect others right to worship. After all, this is AMERICA, and we have a piece of paper, paid for in blood, that says we can. Give others the same respect.

[CWarfield] YOU TELL HIM GIRL!!!!!

[ChrisD1963] More I thought about the anti-masons the more I like to ignore them. We know they are a crock of **** just let them smack there lips sooner or later they will get whats coming to them.